Regalsafe Rs40 Factory Reset?

[morph]

Your comment about Coopers not wanting this information given out makes me despair about their true interest in my security as the only people put at SECURITY risk by this policy are honest law abiding alarm owners.

So if the information was readilly available, a burglar breaks into your house, defaults the alarm switches it off with the default code and then procedes to empty your house.

Who then has your best interest at heart? Your frustration is preventing you from thinking about this rationally.

Is there such a thing as an honest law abiding alarm owner as in one who has never broken the law

[Guest brian gladman]

You are quite right, you are able to do what you wish with your own alarm, same as we are not obligated in anyway to help you with how to default your panel.

Your contract was between the vendor of the house and yourself.

I can appreciate the frustration that you have at us not disclosing how to default your system, but in all honesty how do we know from your posts that you are who you say you are?

You may well be an electrical engineer and you will in that case appreciate that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. As bellman has stated several manufacturers requested(some legally) that defaulting and engineering manuals are not posted in public, Regalsafe(Cooper Security) were one of the most insistent.

Talk to Cooper Security they may help you, but be advised it is an old alarm and there tech guys will probably not know how to do this, possibly even advising a new panel.

Thank you for your helpful comments. I intend to contact Coopers but from what you say I think I am going to be less than impressed by their understanding of security. It was truly trivial to disable this alarm and I could now do this in less than 10 seconds having done it once. Hiding the factory reset as if this is security sensitive may convince 'joe public' that they know what they are doing but it won't convince any security professional since the person who is in ultimate control of security must always be in a position to do this in any truly secure system.

The only thing that I am now unsure of is whethe rto wait to speak to Coopers or whether to take the alarm to pieces anyway as I suspect that the latter will be far quicker

with best regards,

Brian Gladman

[Guest brian gladman]

So if the information was readilly available, a burglar breaks into your house, defaults the alarm switches it off with the default code and then procedes to empty your house.

Who then has your best interest at heart? Your frustration is preventing you from thinking about this rationally.

Is there such a thing as an honest law abiding alarm owner as in one who has never broken the law

If the system is properly engineered the it will take more effort to reset the system to factory default than it will to simply disable it. In fact it did not take me more than a couple of minutes maximum to disable this alarm the first time (without any manuals) and I could now do this in less than 15 seconds having done it once. I would expect any avergae burglar who got as far as needing to disable an alarm would do what I did and certainly not bother with a factory reset.

But I agree that a sophisticated burglar could reset the alarm and set their own codes and return later to do their dirty deed without fear of setting it off. But anyone who thinks that such a buglar is going to be deterred because the factory reset is not public knowledge is not thinking straight. In this situation the ability of an owner to negate any action taken by the burglar by doing their own reset is important. This is exactly my point in seeing a reset to factory defaullt state as an important end user security requirement.

The core issue here is one of principle. I believe that, as the owner of a security alarm, I and not the manufacturer, the supplier or the maintainer should have ultimate control over my security. I might choose to delegate this contol to one of you guys by hiring your services but this has to be delgation of control, not transfer. Otherwise it is you and not me that has ultimate control over my security. And that is not right.

best regards,

Brian Gladman

Well stop moaning and replace the controls...........

is this the correct use??????

Who is moaning? I, for one, am not.

But I am entering into a debate about what I see as misplaced views on security.

Brian Gladman

[bellman]

The only thing that I am now unsure of is whethe rto wait to speak to Coopers or whether to take the alarm to pieces anyway as I suspect that the latter will be far quicker

with best regards,

Brian Gladman

After having frustrations with coopers a few times myself (not due to lack of knowledge but by the fact that the original firm no longer exist along with the wealth of eng talent that designed your panel) I also suspect it would be quicker to disassemble it.

There are other ways of extracting the current code out of the panels memory rather than default it, (as you can with hundreds of other devices also) but as your electronically minded I suspect you will already be aware of them.

Regards

Bellman

[Guest brian gladman]

After having frustrations with coopers a few times myself (not due to lack of knowledge but by the fact that the original firm no longer exist along with the wealth of eng talent that designed your panel) I also suspect it would be quicker to disassemble it.

Actually the reason I am here is that this product is one that comes from a firm that has been taken over by Coopers. who I suspect have no real interest in it. Hence it is almost universal around here that companies want to replace this alarm rather than maintain it. And yet from my inspection of its internals I rate it as far better than what would be put in its place. It is really well made (although it lacks the flashy exterior) and I hence would rather keep it going instead of replacing it.

here are other ways of extracting the current code out of the panels memory rather than default it, (as you can with hundreds of other devices also) but as your electronically minded I suspect you will already be aware of them.

I noticed this but the manual is poor on this since the external interface is completely undocumneted. And I would have to be pretty lucky to come across a Regalsafe printer in working order

I hence concluded that reset was my only real option to keep it going.

Thanks again for your most helpful comments

with best regards,

Brian Gladman

[bellman]

I believe that, as the owner of a security alarm, I and not the manufacturer, the supplier or the maintainer should have ultimate control over my security. I might choose to delegate this contol to one of you guys by hiring your services but this has to be delgation of control, not transfer. Otherwise it is you and not me that has ultimate control over my security. And that is not right.

And who is better placed to have that control, an experianced security engineer with several years training and experiance or a competant DIYer?

I understand where you are coming from Brian but I do think your views are slightly misplaced.

My TV has several service modes as does my car's computer controlled systems, should I default and reset these to my own requirements or trust in the judgement of other more experianced and knowledgeable people?

There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paranioa from time to time, I get that too

Oh, hang on, no, I get that ALL the time

At the end of the day it revolves around trust. My customers trust and delegate me to provide adequate protection for them as I'm sure you alse provide the benefit of your skills and experiance to yours. from your own experiances you now know what any eng on here could tell you, i.e. the old regalsafe system you have can be easily silenced.

I can assure you that most professional systems are much more secure against attack.

Considering how old the panel is, would it not be in your best interests to replace it with something a little more up to date and more secure? A Texecom premier for example?

Security is formed by the combination of several factors, good locks, good alarm, strong doors, etc. so all in all the compramise of only one part of it shouldn't compramise your WHOLE security.

I hope you get it sorted out, we will help if we can but rules are rules and we will not divulge the defauling info.

If you decide to go down the replacement panel path then do come and ask if you get stuck, we'll be happy to assist where we can

Regards

Bellman

[Guest brian gladman]

And who is better placed to have that control, an experianced security engineer with several years training and experiance or a competant DIYer?

It is important to distinguish between ultimate control and delegated control. As you suggest it will often be right to delegate security control to a person who is believed to be trustworthy and more knowledgeable.

But it is still necessary to retain sufficient control to be able to rescind this delegation if it proves to be inadequate for some reason. This is what I mean by retaining ultimate control. Control of security must only ever be delegated and never transferred in a way that prevents a delegation being rescinded.

It is the ability of an owner to perform a factory reset that maintains their ultimate control over their own security since this is the way that they can rescind a delegation of security control should this prove to be necessary (the ability to pass control from one third party to another does not equate to rescinding a delegation).

I understand where you are coming from Brian but I do think your views are slightly misplaced.

My TV has several service modes as does my car's computer controlled systems, should I default and reset these to my own requirements or trust in the judgement of other more experianced and knowledgeable people?

It's a balance between many factors. But when security is concerned I choose to do as much as I can myself as I don't trust anyone else (no offence intended to anyone listening in - I am sure that the vast majority of you folk are honest).

There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of paranioa from time to time, I get that too

Oh, hang on, no, I get that ALL the time

At the end of the day it revolves around trust. My customers trust and delegate me to provide adequate protection for them as I'm sure you alse provide the benefit of your skills and experiance to yours. from your own experiances you now know what any eng on here could tell you, i.e. the old regalsafe system you have can be easily silenced.

I can assure you that most professional systems are much more secure against attack.

You are arguing from a sensible position and one I respect. You are not making spurious arguments about the security value of reset codes and are instead pointing out that the system I have is not as secure as it could be, or should be, today. I think if we met I would listen to you and you would be able to convince me to trust you.

Considering how old the panel is, would it not be in your best interests to replace it with something a little more up to date and more secure? A Texecom premier for example?

Security is formed by the combination of several factors, good locks, good alarm, strong doors, etc. so all in all the compramise of only one part of it shouldn't compramise your WHOLE security.

I hope you get it sorted out, we will help if we can but rules are rules and we will not divulge the defauling info.

If you decide to go down the replacement panel path then do come and ask if you get stuck, we'll be happy to assist where we can

Thank you for the offer, which I much appreciate. I will see where I get with Cooper Security as well as I like a challenge.

best regards,

Brian Gladman

[Guest brian gladman]

was it ringing outside??

It was the first time I disabled it but I can disable it now in a few seconds without it ringing outside. I am sure any 'half decent' burglar could do this without bothering about the factory reset.

has the local ford dealer got ford anglia bits on the shelf??

What has this got to do with a Regalsafe RS40 alarm?

gosh really?? they don't want the hassle of dealing with skip fodder

I don't know whether they want this bother or not. What I do know is that they want to get people to junk RS40 systems that are in good working order for no good reason that they have been able to explain cogently.

we've got lots of engineers printers thank you....

Thank you for this information. I had thought that they might not be around any longer in a form that would work with an RS40.

with best regards,

Brian Gladman

[bellman]

It is important to distinguish between ultimate control and delegated control. As you suggest it will often be right to delegate security control to a person who is believed to be trustworthy and more knowledgeable.

Ultimate control rests with the manufacturer, they have access levels above engineer.

Delegated control is something for the owner and the maintainer to conceed between them, established practice in this industry designates control of programming functions to engineers for the reasons we discussed above.

But it is still necessary to retain sufficient control to be able to rescind this delegation if it proves to be inadequate for some reason. This is what I mean by retaining ultimate control. Control of security must only ever be delegated and never transferred in a way that prevents a delegation being rescinded.

This is true and the defaulting procedure remains as the key component to recinding that.

It is established custom and practice to pass this level of control from one maintainer to the other.

I appreciate that this is 3rd party to 3rd party as you note below, but I'd have to disagree with your statement about not equating to a recinding as once defaulted the outgoing maintainer has no control over the system or codes for it. there is no difference from a security point of view from getting a 3rd party to default it or defaulting it yourself, the end result is the same.

It is the ability of an owner to perform a factory reset that maintains their ultimate control over their own security since this is the way that they can rescind a delegation of security control should this prove to be necessary (the ability to pass control from one third party to another does not equate to rescinding a delegation).

we addressed that one above...

It's a balance between many factors. But when security is concerned I choose to do as much as I can myself as I don't trust anyone else (no offence intended to anyone listening in - I am sure that the vast majority of you folk are honest).

Again I understand your concerns and I do the same myself to some extent, I always try to do as much stuff myself as possible but sometimes I have to pass things on to 3rd parties to do as it's either not financially viable or I cannot get the parts / equipment.

ALL employees of approved co's are 10 year police vetted and security screened, this is a requirement of the standards the approval bodies put into place to protect end users such as yourself. It makes me laugh at times though since on several occasions I have had store managers follow me around inside cash offices and the like in case i nick anything, ironic really since I have had a more stringent security check than the manager thats following me about.

You are arguing from a sensible position and one I respect. You are not making spurious arguments about the security value of reset codes and are instead pointing out that the system I have is not as secure as it could be, or should be, today. I think if we met I would listen to you and you would be able to convince me to trust you.

Thank you for the offer, which I much appreciate. I will see where I get with Cooper Security as well as I like a challenge.

best regards,

Brian Gladman

I always try to be logical in my approach to arguments and discussions. Bull sh*t on either side just serves to cloud the issues at hand and does nothing to further the discussions. I would strongly suggest that you consider replacing the controls and also the outside sounder as no doubt it is as old as the controls and well in need of maintenance, you don't state how old the system is but the batteries in both the bell box and the panel are probably well past their best by now.

I'm pleased that you feel you would be able to place trust in me, I hold the position I do because several others also express the same thoughts and views, The systems I am charged to look after protect premises and stock worth multi million pounds, such as warehouses, schools, MOD bases, government / council offices, industrial areas, as well as large leisure and shopping centres with hundreds of detectors.

There is no convincing involved, I will offer my best advice and guidence whatever the situation at hand. If people choose to follow my advice or not is their own perogative. all I can do is try to guide them in the right direction based on my experiance and skills. I'm sure you also come across situations that are simlar and require a little explaining.

I wouldn't hold your breath with coopers but best of luck anyway.

Keep us informed of your progress

Regards

Bellman

[Guest brian gladman]

Ultimate control rests with the manufacturer, they have access levels above engineer.

Delegated control is something for the owner and the maintainer to conceed between them, established practice in this industry designates control of programming functions to engineers for the reasons we discussed above.

I think you are coming at this from a different perspective because I am considering my security and how I can maintain control over this. As the owner of assets I want to protect them and I believe that I must retain ultimate responsibility for this. I might choose to delegate aspects of this security to an alarm manufacturer, to an installer and to a maintainer but I have to be able to withdraw from any relationships that no longer serve my needs by rescinding any authority that I have delegated.

This is true and the defaulting procedure remains as the key component to recinding that.

It is established custom and practice to pass this level of control from one maintainer to the other.

I appreciate that this is 3rd party to 3rd party as you note below, but I'd have to disagree with your statement about not equating to a recinding as once defaulted the outgoing maintainer has no control over the system or codes for it. there is no difference from a security point of view from getting a 3rd party to default it or defaulting it yourself, the end result is the same.

It's not the same at all in my view. In one case I have recinded a delegated authority and recovered it myself; in the other case I have sought to pass it between two third parties. In the latter situation I have a great deal less control over what happens.

For example, if I have established a relationhip with one maintainer and I find that they have been convicted of burglary, I want to remove their delegated authority immediately and I certainly don't want to wait until I have had time to establish a trust relationship with another supplier since this won't be something I can arrange overnight. Hence my ability to do a factory reset is an important aspect of my security as an end user since it protects me from rogue maintainers.

we addressed that one above...

Again I understand your concerns and I do the same myself to some extent, I always try to do as much stuff myself as possible but sometimes I have to pass things on to 3rd parties to do as it's either not financially viable or I cannot get the parts / equipment.

ALL employees of approved co's are 10 year police vetted and security screened, this is a requirement of the standards the approval bodies put into place to protect end users such as yourself. It makes me laugh at times though since on several occasions I have had store managers follow me around inside cash offices and the like in case i nick anything, ironic really since I have had a more stringent security check than the manager thats following me about.

I used to set some of these standards but I don't really believe in them at the bottom end of the market (home security).

I always try to be logical in my approach to arguments and discussions. Bull sh*t on either side just serves to cloud the issues at hand and does nothing to further the discussions. I would strongly suggest that you consider replacing the controls and also the outside sounder as no doubt it is as old as the controls and well in need of maintenance, you don't state how old the system is but the batteries in both the bell box and the panel are probably well past their best by now.

My system is 11 years old and I have just renewed the batteries in both the RS40 and the external sounder as you suggest. My daughter's system is even older and is the one for which we don't have the engineering code. But I have just realised that I can copy copy the EEPROM on my system into her EEPROM and get a system in which we know the codes.

I'm pleased that you feel you would be able to place trust in me, I hold the position I do because several others also express the same thoughts and views, The systems I am charged to look after protect premises and stock worth multi million pounds, such as warehouses, schools, MOD bases, government / council offices, industrial areas, as well as large leisure and shopping centres with hundreds of detectors.

There is no convincing involved, I will offer my best advice and guidence whatever the situation at hand. If people choose to follow my advice or not is their own perogative. all I can do is try to guide them in the right direction based on my experiance and skills. I'm sure you also come across situations that are simlar and require a little explaining.

I wouldn't hold your breath with coopers but best of luck anyway.

Keep us informed of your progress

I am not sure how interested you folk really are. But I will willingly report back on my Coopers interactions (I am not confident here) and on my EEPROM copying experiment.

with best regards,

Brian Gladman