Brian c Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 My feelings, when this has been discussed before, have been not to give out any engineering info at all. If it's in the engineer manual, don't give it out. This was based purely on the security risk issue. So when I saw this crop up again I did a quick google search to see how easy it was to get info elsewhere on the net. Within a couple of minutes I got a 49 page guide to advanced lock picking! However, it seems that TSI is one of very few places to get intruder alarm advice. My feelings have now changed slightly. I now think that if members want to be a bit more forthcoming then that's fine, as long as we don't give out engineer manuals or defaulting info, as that's were the real security risk is. If you don't know......ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 hi old hand, Personally i believe we should not give out total amounts of info on here. By all means help "joe public" but when they come up against a problem then we "charge" so to speak.the above i agree with, no way would i suggest the way the 'A' team bypassed alarms systems was not the defacto way of doing it. .......... moral of this story........Yes lets tell everyone how to do our jobs, whos 1st in line for the dole office then.............or prison. i don't advocate telling everyone everything we know, what we know is what we are paid for, some are paid too little and some way to much. but then that is not the issue we are debating in this thread. the issue is how access to an engineering manual is in any way a possible security breach. Dont we get vetted for a reason, For //.B.W.F.// Sake we even get vetted to become a trade member here. I dont see it as an exclusive club, however how many other people do you know who are allowed an intimacy with clients and knowledge of valuable items and codes (because we are trusted with codes for some reason) and not get tempted to do the wrong thing. Think the last bit says it all the issue of vetting is not being discussed here, and if the client is working on his own system in fact actually removes one level of security compromise, imo vetting has obvious value to the client and the industry, and on this i'm sure we al agree. PS You dont call a plumber out to fix your car do you, or you do and no i don't and would not, but i would not stop that plummer from having the option to fix his own car, or the client to use that plummer for the alarm system either, as thats just freedom of choice, and responsibility. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RICHL Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 RJB's hit the nail on the head there. I would rather see the site go trade only than see engineer information given out freely to all and sundry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 The problem i see is some fool will rip out the mains and kill himself. well at least they might get a mension in 'darwinawards.com' if they are going to open a panel and we do not allow access to a manual they will most likely open it anyway to have a look - completely unaided. regs alan i wouldn't mind if we don't let joe public in at all but since they are here i don't see a problem with them being told how they can tamper with their own system. hi george, jo public might be jo breakin merchant, so lets keep it to availabilty of manuals and design help, not design overcome. regs alan I agree we should draw the line at supplying Defaulting information, and supplying Engineer manuals hi dave, to keep to your O/P why bar engineering amnuals? defaulting! earlier post covers my opinion regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breff Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I dont mind giving help to someone who has installed their system but has programmed a particular option incorrectly, they have already installed it and are unlikely to call in an engineer to program it. If we can help to prevent DIY systems false alarming by giving good advice it can only do the industry good. False alarming systems give ALL systems a bad name. However, when I give information I usually give an answer that refers to a particular page in the installation manual and requires them to have the manual. IMO we should not give engineer manuals or defaulting info to the public. The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct! (Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 hi alarmgard, So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line.with respect, we are drifting from the original question by overcomplication and some exageration, by this i don't mean your example is not valid as an example of grading perils, but has no relevance to the availability of engineer manuals or design programming advice being given out. Also if there buying so called DIY panels, why shouldn't they get the support from the people they are buying the panels from, they got paid and had the profit. not quite so, as many item's you buy iare never fully supported, buy a car and the seller is not commited to teach to drive for instance or even check if you can, only it's roadworthy and to honour any warrenty. now would that not fall under 'technical support' in you view? of course not. regs alan hi old hand, Your point being?The "cheapskates" who want to do a install and get stuck, well isnt this why the header stating, "We dont Give out manuals" there for a reason! but what reason? why would giving out a manual alter the above situation for the worst? And we wonder why they introduced all the regs to limit false alarms................................ and again, but what reason? why would giving out a manual alter the above situation for the worst? having the book is one thing, being able to understand it is another regs alan don't you need to be trained & then tested if found competent you get a driving licence to get a license yes, but we have another - go to auction - pay 30 squids - drive straight out onto the public highway - now its not moral or legal but you can't stop it either especially with a manual regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 ...jo public might be jo breakin merchant, so lets keep it to availabilty of manuals and design help, not design overcome. ... at least it would point out clearly why a pro installation is better than DIY.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 hi Brian ................ as long as we don't give out engineer manuals or defaulting info, as that's were the real security risk is. at the risk of being very pedantic, how will having the manual allow anyone to lower the security of a system? you will need access to the panel to make any programming alteration. asuming reasonably installed i'm unlikely to get near the panel without a signal being generated, even as an experienced engineer with some knowhow. i could get a galaxie manual, stroll through the nearest shopping centre - and not be able to down any panels by waving the manual in the air - and that even includes //.National Installer.// systems. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian c Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 hi Brianat the risk of being very pedantic, how will having the manual allow anyone to lower the security of a system? A lot of engineering manuals have defaulting information in them. If you don't know......ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 True, who is going to be able to cut off a Redcare and GSM with a large book in hand? Go Georg, tell us.......... A lot of engineering manuals have defaulting information in them. Isnt that the point of engineering manuals?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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