Public Panels

[whistle]

Your avarage engineer could disable 99% of the ade range in about 3 secondsl longer than it takes to get the lid off.

[arfur mo]

Your avarage engineer could disable 99% of the ade range in about 3 secondsl longer than it takes to get the lid off.

or open the manual

regs

alan

[antinode]

Fair enough if you're going to do it "that way", but my point is having a manual does'nt make it much easier to get round a system on the face of it.

A garden gnome could probably disable anything made by ADE.

[morph]

So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line.

with respect, we are drifting from the original question by overcomplication and some exageration, by this i don't mean your example is not valid as an example of grading perils, but has no relevance to the availability of engineer manuals or design programming advice being given out.

As usual you have only read part of the topic and formed an opinion, Dave said he would suggest that we support panels that were DIY or Grade 1, another member stated that other members actually sell and certificate grade 1 installs. So the point is very relevant as the final grading of system is dependent on the lowest grade of component installed.

Also if there buying so called DIY panels, why shouldn't they get the support from the people they are buying the panels from, they got paid and had the profit.

not quite so, as many item's you buy iare never fully supported, buy a car and the seller is not commited to teach to drive for instance or even check if you can, only it's roadworthy and to honour any warrenty. now would that not fall under 'technical support' in you view? of course not.

They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off, same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car.

pardon Roger! why this bile, unregulated never equals un-professional imo i've seen and worked for to many regulated copanies to know the truth but this is the public area so lets keep that our little secret.

an ill informed and silly answer, based mainly on spite and assumption, and with no actual knowledge of how i conduct my buisness, or how many installs have you actually inspected of mine then?

so just answer the politly put question - politely and with the respct shown to you like a real man would do,especially if you wish respect in turn from this forum let alone me.

i suggest you draw from your vast and obviously superior array of regulated 'professional' wisdom and show us how, that should be very simple for given your qualifications. make not only me, but everone else agree with you - as if you had any such talent!

so i assume that's to hard for you? and you realised you have no real answer, so resort to cat calling - on a simple question , based on the truth and fear 'arfur's' got you good and proper

answer - or find a real excuse not to - regulated or not!.

regs

alan

Alan we have asked this question several times now and you have NEVER answered, what standard or standards do you install your intruder alarm systems to?

When you look at it realistically, it would be nigh on impossible for any potential intruder to access a reasonably well installed system of any grade would'nt it, even with manuals, tools and some knowledge of the system? Assuming the intruder doesn't know the engineer code he may aswell just use the manual to wipe his //.B.W.F.// with unless he can tamper the end station, because it's useless otherwise! All this is before he has gained access to the premises and discovered the location of the panel which should be reasonably concealed.

Are diy systems well installed? some yes majority no.

If a diy person has gone to the extent of installing there own alarm, its umlikely that they will call an engineer at the first sign of a fault, in fact this site is an example of the lenghts that people go to before calling out an engineer, did you see the post earlier tonight of the householder that bought a chip programmer to change settings when a simple solution was obvious.

But do panels get easilly concealed, mosts houses have them fitted in only a couple of places, most new houses that have systems fitted are identical locations and all with the same codes. many customers dont even know how to change the default user code despite having the manual.

Even if he manages to default the system, when the customer goes to set it and his code does'nt work, would'nt he phone an engineer? We'd all like to think so... Burglars are more likely to resort to tried and tested methods or circumventing detection, which I'm sure you've all seen before. I think we're giving them more credit than they deserve here IMO.

A diy customer is more likely to wait until later in the week when they have the weekend or time off be before looking for the fault.

That said, I still don't think the manual should even come with the panel for proffesional gear and I do try to limit the info I give out in the public forums.

[arfur mo]

As usual you have only read part of the topic and formed an opinion, Dave said he would suggest that we support panels that were DIY or Grade 1, another member stated that other members actually sell and certificate grade 1 installs. So the point is very relevant as the final grading of system is dependent on the lowest grade of component installed.

They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off, same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car.

Alan we have asked this question several times now and you have NEVER answered, what standard or standards do you install your intruder alarm systems to?

well lets see where i went wrong?

i have cut and pasted the op of Daves below, the boxes and red type just made my eye's bleed

=================================================

Now that a lot of what we once considered TRADE only panels are being sold by the likes of Screwfix and numerous online retailers, should we be re-thinking what information/advice we are willing to discuss in these public forums.?

Should the fact these panels are easilly purchasable by the public, and that most of these panels manuals are readilly available online at quite a few sites mean that any related queries should be up for discussion..?

=================================================

now correct me if i'm wrong, and excuse me if i am but i openned that up in the very next post to cover ALL engineer manuals being available, and how would that lessen the security of any system, ok i should have said perhaps PRO system so strike me down now , so now inform me what have i not read or misunderstood - but save me the boxes please and the RED TYPE.

as to my standards, given the 'talk' on putting doors on test, my standards are not in question.

but lets kick that about a bit -:

a pro system - well one installed by me anyway - would be hard to get to the panel at any speed without a confirmed signal being sent - i ask do you put a contact on the door or loft trap where the main panel is to give a confirmed signal? so hows YOUR standards looking now then? glass houses and stones or what!

now a DIY system may not be so well sited or protected, but then they did not pay to have the pro advice and took a gamble - thats their perogative and risk.

my reference to buying a car was to demonstrate the point where it is argued 'reasonable support' not unlimited.

now for your example - 'They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off' - really? you do surprise me - they should not need to ask - i.e. a pro installer shows them during customer training, but then you do not know this is a standard proceedure then and part of a professional instal - regulated or not?

and this bit - 'same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car' WTF no, not if i'm doing it myself i expect to be able to look it up in a ruddy owners manual at least. now with veicles i have noticed for a long time its not the norm to be given a full factory workshop manual with a new car. but please correct me if i'm wrong but it is the norm to get a full engineers manual in an alarm control panel carton - supplied by the manufacturer who has happened to design it, and see's no issue with it being there.

now can i just allude a tad to a recent thread which reasoned 'if its an allowed option within the design of a BS/En panel then its a legal option'. so the manual on that basis is allowed.

ok, any more off piest questions i can help you with? - or can YOU answer the OP properly and my initial posted question?

now go on, i bet you could if you really really tried very very hard - oh well perhaps not or you would have done by now

regs

alan

///waits for keyboard to cool down - kicks dog who bite's me, now see what you did

[Guest]

but save me the boxes please and the RED TYPE.

no

but please correct me if i'm wrong but it is the norm to get a full engineers manual in an alarm control panel carton -

hey alan, according to your posts your a 595 man?

never seen one shipped with any thing but that double sided single sheet of paper

[ian.cant]

Actually Alan your standards are in question and have been on this forum for some considerable time.

QFA

A lot of what he types doesnt add up, make sense or is often incorrect but ive given up on that now!

If manufactures were quite happy to supply manuals to JP they would make them available for download...........they dont in general, why should we?

[Guest]

... you have told us that your work is not inspected by a UKAS accredited inspectorate so I put you outside of the large number of installation companies in the UK that open themselves up to inspection

yep - only transparency can prove you are right.

and work to agreed standards and codes of practice.

in case of alan i wouldn't be too afraid of that but tell me the standard or code of practise which couldn't be improved?

You see Alan your verbal diarrhoea does not make you right -

if he is right he is right and the fact he isn't inspected by anyone doesn't make him wrong either. blind eyed trust to inspectorates is wrong.

just because you post longer and have four times as many replies as anyone else doesn't make you right. You speak from your own perspective and do not represent the vast majority of professional installers who are working hard every day to improve the credibility of the industry and instill confidence in the public who use our services.

Posting information on a public Internet forum about matters that could conceivably affect the integrity of someone elses home or business security system, or which may be perceived by anyone as doing so, does not improve the credibility of the industry or instill confidence in its workforce ... professional companies should not be thinking of doing that.

funny - i thought it was a law that you have to give customer everything that is in the box? are you now trying to tell us we should break the law? how professional is that?

i do not see any reason to give engineers manual to end user. they do not (ok - RARELY) have knowledge nor training to understand what it says anyway AND therefore it will just cause more questions and trouble if they have it --> reason we won't give it out voluntarily.

usually my customer says that in case i am not anymore in business he can ask someone else to repair it in case and then he needs a manual. how stupid is that???

1) HE doesn't need the manual (but the new installer/service engineer)

2) Engineer doesn't need it since he has it anyway if he is pro (and why would anyone want a DIYer touch his alarm system)

next what they want is the codes with what ever reason they are able to figure out while i am leaving. never they wanted them after i give them a paper stating that there is absolutely not any kind of warranty and ALL communications and work regarding the alarm from the moment on when they get the codes are chargeable.

althou i don't see a point why we should not give out manuals which are anyway available everywhere. if people won't get manuals they go elsewhere and then come back with their silly questions anyway. if we don't want to support them then let's close joe public out.

of and forgot to say that first they get the wrong manual, then wrong version etc. and bother us with stupid questions like "why doesn't ver 2.1 manual have relative info to 3.1.. blah blah blah..."

[Guest]

I don't sell the contents of a box, I sell security installations and professional at that.

aswell.

[arfur mo]

Well Roger, lets take a look shall we - now what all this has to do with having a manual making a system less secure is beyond me and you have still chosen to ignore or by-pass the question, i see it now you are simple throwing up a smoke screen trying to desperately use what ever straw it is - but here go's

My comment was not "bile" neither was it "ill-informed and silly", "cat-calling", impolite or disrespectful.

hmmm Roger so writing -----,

"You work outside of the regulated field of installation practice, I do not expect you to look at things from a truly professional standpoint.

now correct me if i'm wrong but that indicates a tendenecy to tarnish me and with a broad brush, now perhaps i'm a bit over sensative, but i take that as an unwarrented insult, but i'm also thick skinned too.

Professional installation companies in the UK are regulated through a UKAS accredited inspectorate.

so that won't be 'cat calling' then or in any way even couched as a slight - meow come's to mind

Whoever you are

i'm alan taylor, and arfur_mo try to keep up please

and whatever work you do, you have told us that your work is not inspected by a UKAS accredited inspectorate so I put you outside of the large number of installation companies in the UK that open themselves up to inspection and work to agreed standards and codes of practice.

and you say i got overactive 'verbals' - so whats you point? working outside of an organisition is not to say i or anyone else do not keep up to or exceed standards is it? my inspection is by the clients, my rewards are further recommendations and constant orders, now you might say they do not know any better and i'd agree - because feel and know i am the best there is.

but really Roger, this is a new or at best a re-openned thread from my earlier days, trying to be used by you to discredit me in some way and perhaps rally the troups of the old gaurd.

try instead answering the question - as its your cred going out the window imo not mine, some like me prefer to be judged on what we actually do and thats my perogative, not what we 'say' we do by brandishing an inspectorate badge and thats your perogative and by that i mean no disrepect to all within such inspectorates or the inspectorates themselve.

that is imo a fair and honest precept to trade within. my company name is Eye 2 Eye and needs no further exsplanation why i chose that name. for me, any inspectorate is only as good as it's worst installers installtion engineer, and i for one don't like being associated with the worst, but thats up to the individuals, perhaps like you who happy with that siuation.

so in truth, another attempted silly insult bordering on the slanderous by suggesting as i am not in an inspectorate then by default i am not a professional, so where doe's that pearl wizdomed reasoning come from? and how do you support such bios clap trap - remember i asked you how many of MY installations have you inspected - and do YOU fit a contact on the cupboard or trap door where the controls are?? or you have not answered as you realise my standards bleach you out?

and while you at now answering those questions - answer it the original thread.

meanwhile Roger, step outside take a deep breath of reality and have a good look, as you are under a deep misconception caused by bios and the sheer fear of your leaving you 'street cred' (as if) in tatters due to someone who can answer you.

Many Non-inspected companies are none the less Professional installers and keeping very high standards, but seeking to exceed them, and just like me who care and take great pride in what and how they do their work.

here we go again with more of your silly remarks -:

You see Alan your verbal diarrhoea does not make you right

so show me where i am wrong - if you can! with me yiou get quality too

- just because you post longer

well i do like to be clear, but your not helping me

and have four times as many replies as anyone else doesn't make you right.

and when would that make me wrong then?

You speak from your own perspective

true, but then don't you from yours?

and do not represent the vast majority of professional installers

nope don't remember ever saying i did - so are you claiming to, if so by what authority?

who are working hard every day to improve the credibility of the industry and instill confidence in the public who use our services.

and i am no different, i just don't were any badge. its actually what i do, not what others (inspectorates) say i will do and don't always (based on true experiences not assumptions).

Posting information on a public Internet forum about matters that could conceivably affect the integrity of someone elses home or business security system,

and where have i actually done that? - post numbers only please and i'll go back and read them

or which may be perceived by anyone as doing so,

so now its anyone? not just enginneers or professionals then? Mr Brown the road sweeper will enjoy such a power to silence me i bet!

does not improve the credibility of the industry or instill confidence in its workforce ... professional companies should not be thinking of doing that.

i bet most professional campanies DO think about doing just THAT and pro-actively, still i like your honesty for a change is refreshing. (well and truly shot yourself in the butt with that one Roger imo).

Actually Alan your standards are in question and have been on this forum for some considerable time.

fine, so are yours based i fear based on your previuos sentence, i'll let the inspectorate companies sort you out with some good advice, meanwhile keep your replies to those thoughts that have either some common sense or at least basis on proof, and not assumption.

so, having got that off our chest's lets turn to the question in hand, i.e. -:

how will having access to an engineers manual reduce the security of a system, even if it was a 'prox' which in my limited ability i have not seen but i am limited, it would have to be in range.

now if this is so devasting to exsplain in public, by all means pm your answer to me and i will acknowledge it in this forum (not repeat it), and fully in the trade area - so go for it Roger stop using deflection or confusion tacticts, here's you chance i'm calling 'check' (i play chess really good) so lets see you call 'mate' on me. now given me being a low quality (because i'm not in an inspectorate) no good cowbay company with no standards whatsoever, that should be really easy.

i'm waiting........and so is every one else i bet

regs

alan