Retrofitting New Panels

[Guest mark]

Hello.

I'm conducting some research into the installation of new intruder alarm panels in existing sites where a proportion of existing hardware has been retained. Often installers would like to use the cabling, sensors, card readers, etc already installed in a building in an effort to reduce the time taken and amount of work required to complete a replacement installation with a new suppliers equipment.

I'm looking for any observations on this topic from engineers who have been involved in retrofit installations. Do's and don'ts. Features they would like to see on panels that would allow for easier retrofitting of new panels and brief case histories (no names or addresses required). I'm basically trying t o get a handle on what the industry would like to see the designers and manufacturers do to make retrofis easier to carry out.

No replies please after 7th Sept 2006

[morph]

Who are you and what is your interest in this information?

[Guest]

right new controls on existing site?

depends what controls are in to start with?

you just need a product with a four wire data bus, support of double pole, eol & iD, if you can define your eol vaules great if not a you'll have do a swap.

a product which will do all of this is a m series

[arfur mo]

Who are you and what is your interest in this information?

you suspisious old thing alarmgard

with respect to the OP i can see little value in such research, as technology moves on it changes the requirements when retrofitting.

a simple pir with terminations at the top is replaced by another model with terminations at the bottom, the original engineer left no slack - how do you 'combat' that as a manufacturer?

as to retaining original cables, that would be an on-site decission as to condition and viability, an example where once was an IR ray there is now a need for say 8 vipers on a range of windows - perhaps you will start to see what i mean, retrofit is a large clumsey brush to work with, as there is no one solution to fit all.

take the main panel, 10 years back it could be a wapper of a box like a 9800 being replaced by a CPX panel, the cables wil again likely need extending, but we still want smal panels on domestics.

regs

alan

[Guest mark]

Who are you and what is your interest in this information?

I'm a design engineer, I have been asked to investigate ways and means of making it easier for customers (panel installers) to fit new alarm panels into sites that already have a panel installed but not necessarily of the same make or manufacturer. For instance, different panel manufacturers may specify different cabling types for the communications bus but by quoting max distances in the installation manual for different cable types it may allow installers to to determine whether or not they can use the existing wiring when replacing an old panel. Installer saves time, customer saves money.

[Guest mark]

Who are you and what is your interest in this information?

you suspisious old thing alarmgard

with respect to the OP i can see little value in such research, as technology moves on it changes the requirements when retrofitting.

a simple pir with terminations at the top is replaced by another model with terminations at the bottom, the original engineer left no slack - how do you 'combat' that as a manufacturer?

as to retaining original cables, that would be an on-site decission as to condition and viability, an example where once was an IR ray there is now a need for say 8 vipers on a range of windows - perhaps you will start to see what i mean, retrofit is a large clumsey brush to work with, as there is no one solution to fit all.

take the main panel, 10 years back it could be a wapper of a box like a 9800 being replaced by a CPX panel, the cables wil again likely need extending, but we still want smal panels on domestics.

regs

alan

I agree but "ours is but to do or die" and whether I like it or not I have to do the research. However, to give a few simple examples of where it may be useful:-

1) by supplying specifications for use of particular cable types in installation manuals installers and surveyors will be better able to determine whether or not existing cabling can be used.

2) By making the eol resistor values seen by the panel software programmable a panel could be enabled to use existing sensors without the need of changing the resistors in the sensors.

3) By enabling a panel to use data bases of various formats it should be possible to use existing card readers and ensure that the customer does not need to reissue id entry cards for access control.

Thanks for your opinions and comments, just what I want!

Mark

[arfur mo]

hi mark,

my remarks in blue (sorry for the pun)

I agree but "ours is but to do or die" and whether I like it or not I have to do the research. However, to give a few simple examples of where it may be useful:-

1) by supplying specifications for use of particular cable types in installation manuals installers and surveyors will be better able to determine whether or not existing cabling can be used.

most companie'a i have met use 6 or 8 core alarm cable, some use screen others don't. i fail to see how you can encompass this, as we also use 12 core and up on larger instals

2) By making the eol resistor values seen by the panel software programmable a panel could be enabled to use existing sensors without the need of changing the resistors in the sensors.

yep, could work out. it is anoying when booting out a tunstal for a gardtec, but at least you do a physical inspection of each devicewhile changing them over.

3) By enabling a panel to use data bases of various formats it should be possible to use existing card readers and ensure that the customer does not need to reissue id entry cards for access control.

you ned to seperate access control from intruder, ther are aready standards such as weigand, its the software which makes the difference in recognisng tokens or cards from say Paxton and PACC

Thanks for your opinions and comments, just what I want!

Mark

i wish you luck, after you research do you think you will get makaers to standarise? strangely i suggested only recently that wireless should be like bluetooth so a scanny radio pir could be fitted to a gardtecor Texas panel.

i have often wondered would there be an advantage to use RJ45 connectors and CAT5e cable instead or terminal blocks and alarm cable. this would facilitate using network tools to site test and fault find cables far easily.

i know some purists will be upset by that but lets face it, they are used on millions of computer systems and pro rata rarely give any trouble, or at least imo they are on a par with loose connections suffered on standard terminal blocks.

regs

alan

[Guest]

The thing I would most like to see on a panel that is going in for a retrofit is programmable EOL values. I really really would love to see that.

I'd also quite like selectable EOL values on detectors, especially for ones used in G3 installations.

Another thing that would be good would be individually configurable zone wiring types, so you can set all contacts as DP and all detectors as EOL for instance.

[arfur mo]

The thing I would most like to see on a panel that is going in for a retrofit is programmable EOL values. I really really would love to see that.

I'd also quite like selectable EOL values on detectors, especially for ones used in G3 installations.

Another thing that would be good would be individually configurable zone wiring types, so you can set all contacts as DP and all detectors as EOL for instance.

QFA Lurch

i would think that would have advantages for the makers, as i mght like Gardtec panels but prefer Scanny dual tecs. having changeable links could sway me towards buying the scanny pirs for convenience, if reliabilty. price and performance were the same.

i liked the program attribute you suggested, not too sure how you would implement the cable tamper though on DP contacts, perhaps seeing 9.4k ohms (2 x 4.7k) as a single door open.

to go one further like the old dualing up of IR Rays, if only one contact side is made it flaggs up before setting, but accepts this condition while set.

regs

alan

[golfball]

Use the new scanny 95 it already does most of what you want

just fitted one inplace of an old g16+

told panel fsl 1k 1k and off it went happy as larry

you set the resistances for each zone seperately

so in answer to the original question

scanntronic are prety close already