Connecting Two Novatec 4q Bell Boxes

[Guest chris]

Hi Im connecting two Novatec 4Q bell boxes to a Intellisense Securit 800L panel. I have a couple of questions regarding the Tamper conncetion and was hoping someone would be able to help me out.

I presume they tampers are connected in series:

Connecting the -Bell (sounder hold off supply) from the panel to the TMP Feed of the 1st bell box, and then connecting the TMP Ret from the 1st bell box to the TMP Feed of the 2nd bell box, finally from the TMP ret of the 2nd bell box back to the -R connection in the panel.

Is this correct?

Do I take the - Supply for the Bell from the TMP Feed or the TMP Ret?

Do the 4Q bell boxes enter an "engineer" hold off mode when battery connected like the Texecom's?

Thanks

[Service Engineer]

Is this correct?

YES

Do I take the - Supply for the Bell from the TMP Feed or the TMP Ret?

See Drawing..

Do the 4Q bell boxes enter an "engineer" hold off mode when battery connected like the Texecom's ?

NO

[arfur mo]

hi

connecting 2 sirens the way you suggest will work on many systems, but will cause problems on some panels with some makes of siren.

the reason for this is you are both charging the nicads, and holding off the sirens. in alarm the sirens obviously draw more current than when inactive. on a single siren this i not a problem, but when you then feed a second siren the doubled draw will reduce the tamper voltage returned to the panel.

if you then do a 'bell test' due to the further reduced return voltage you may get a bell tamper occur, this will be shown on the display of the keypads.

to demonstrate this, place a bulb across a battery and it will be a certain brilliance, place a second bulb in series and it will be a 3rd less bright than the 1st one, and the 1st one will be slightly dimmer, it follows from that simple test the second sab's nicad will not be properly charged at the correct voltage.

so i use the 'aux tamper' for the second bell, you need to detect the negative feed out terminal and send this to the bell hold off on the second bell, tamper return to the other side of negative tamper (or in series with remaining looped tampers). both bells then receive a full charge, and a bonus is independent tamper indication in case of a fault. you can also work on any bell without making the other ring, where as you way if you work on the 1st bell the second one will ring when the lid is removed from the 1st bell.

this question and answer is a regular, so perhaps should be in the 'hints & tips' section.

regs

alan

[Service Engineer]

the reason for this is you are both charging the nicads, and holding off the sirens. in alarm the sirens obviously draw more current than when inactive. on a single siren this i not a problem, but when you then feed a second siren the doubled draw will reduce the tamper voltage returned to the panel.

Not true if one box is configured SAB and the other SCB, and this is the usual method when wiring 2 bellboxes.

so i use the 'aux tamper' for the second bell, you need to detect the negative feed out terminal and send this to the bell hold off on the second bell, tamper return to the other side of negative tamper (or in series with remaining looped tampers). both bells then receive a full charge, and a bonus is independent tamper indication in case of a fault. you can also work on any bell without making the other ring, where as you way if you work on the 1st bell the second one will ring when the lid is removed from the 1st bell.

I agree, seperatly tampering each bellbox is prefferable, but not always possible.

[whistle]

Another method is to fit your 2nd bell and fit a small rb007 relay in the panel, feed the + of the coil from the aux in your panel and feed the - with the tamper return.

Connect the NC to a zone and program to 24h ( bell 2 tamper )

Well it would be the NO output as the coil would be energized all the time sorry ( EDIT BIT)

Connect bell 1 as normal.

[arfur mo]

Not true if one box is configured SAB and the other SCB, and this is the usual method when wiring 2 bellboxes.

I agree, seperatly tampering each bellbox is prefferable, but not always possible.

hi Dave

i'm always going to be 'different' to most

my method means both are SAB's and both get charged properly, both indicate tampers seperately and can be worked on individually for servicing. the owner willl not get both bells operating if a tamper occurs during unset period on the '1st' bell (this is not so with series SAB/SCB).

every panel i have personally dealt with has always had an aux tamper loop, on cheaper panels designed for DIY or simple instals they have a universal tamper loop which invariably is negative, as this is the 'other side' of old style legacy OC pressure pads and panels with (+v) looped zones.

the only exception i know of is the gardtec CPX, as the aux tamper becomes zone 9 when EOL is used.

(see, i'm honest to the last ).

regs

alan

[arfur mo]

Another method is to fit your 2nd bell and fit a small rb007 relay in the panel, feed the + of the coil from the aux in your panel and feed the - with the tamper return.

Connect the NC to a zone and program to 24h ( bell 2 tamper )

Well it would be the NO output as the coil would be energized all the time sorry ( EDIT BIT)

Connect bell 1 as normal.

hi whistle,

your method will work fine, but needs the relay and some 'knowhow' and perhaps soldering ability. to a DIY guest proper clear exsplanation is dificult and would be lost i fear, this also applies to exsplaining SAB and SCB.

before a 'war' breaks out i just always use the best K.I.S.S. methods.

anyway, we are all different - it would be boring if we were not and now best scenario is anyone who did not know how to wire 2 sirens before, now has three methods to choose from.

regs

alan

[Service Engineer]

to demonstrate this, place a bulb across a battery and it will be a certain brilliance, place a second bulb in series and it will be a 3rd less bright than the 1st one, and the 1st one will be slightly dimmer, it follows from that simple test the second sab's nicad will not be properly charged at the correct voltage.

I was gonna start on this to arthur, But I couldn't be bothered..

[arfur mo]

I was gonna start on this to arthur, But I couldn't be bothered..

Hi Dave,

oh darn, go on Dave it's a bit quiet on here at the moment, and at least you and i won't insult each other or be chlidish

i was just waiting for a 'come back' from you , so i deliberately kept from saying the second siren working as an SCB would be quieter than an SAB due to it's working from a lower voltage of the battery, instead from 12volts - but i wont say it now!

at the end of the day all the methods will work, none are the 'wrong' one's. i feel my method is just a bit more an elegant solution, and easier for a novice to follow while requiring no extra bits from maplins, and keeping closer to standard wiring,

just say 'SCB' to me (or any experienced engineer) and we have all thats needed to understand and grab your 'concept' and use it, but for jp's if they end up calling in an engineer, that guy will be better able to sus it out a bit quicker, so hopefully saving some dosh on labour.

my slippers and rust tainted Ovaltine are calling out loudly to me

regs

alan

[Guest chris]

Hi, thanks a lot Service Engineer, whistle & Arfur Mo for the advice, really appreciate it.

Only thing thats confused me a little was that I thought that the Novagard 4Q was an SCB sounder. take a look at

http://www.gardtec.ltd.uk/nova4_intro.htm

I know that the Novagard 4G is SAB/SCB selectable.

I figure that The panel connected to the 4Q's will be charging both the nicads, and holding off the sirens. and In Alarm the only extra current draw will be to feed the strobes as the sounders will source thier power from the inbuilt battery pack. Is this correct???

So in theory I shouldnt't have any issues with the bell boxes drawing excessive current from the panel????

Also i have additional contacts in the sounder to those in your diagram Service Engineer, I have:

+ ST which is self explanitory

- ST which is self explanitory

-S which is again obvious

TMP F

TMP Ret which I will connect in series

+12v

-12v

The main confusion (along with connecting tampers in series - which has been answered) was where to take the -12v feed to the bell box from? whether to connect it with the TMP F or TMP Ret in the bell box.

Thanks again for your help guys.