Customer Care

[Guest]

I cant understand the industrys restrictive practices and your problem.....

Here we go again someone who's knows better.....

I have installed only three systems from scratch but not had any problems. I do read the Building Regs and IEEE guides etc so try and do a proper job!. I am about to start on a DSC system which is my first laptop linked one.

Wow 3 installs, gosh I wish I was that skilled

broken then I expect to pay for your skills and time to fix it fully appreciating that this probably cost me alot more than if I had payed and expert in the firstplace.

Thats the thing proper firms look after their contracted subscribers working to the correct standards which cost money, don't want to pay the going rate an alarm meeting the requirement of "The Building Regulation 2000" is new one to me

[binthere]

I cant understand the industrys restrictive practices and your problem. As a supplier you have a choice to take on the work or not. If you do not want the business it will go to somebody else. So give them the engineers code and leave them to it (or did you want them to hard reset it because of course your setup was only leased!). What did you do in the three years before it went wrong that you wanted to charge for?

I have a car which if incorrectly maintained is a lethal weapon, however I can take it to any dealer to get it serviced and any garage is happy to fix problems with it even if they dont service it. I can service it myself using the manufacturers own manuals and if I make a mistake any garage will have no problem charging to fix it. I have no problem getting the official manufacturers warrenty's, the official manuals or special tools and they dont lock me out of the ecu. Why are alarms companies so restrictive in their practices?

Sorry but you have lost the plot,we are providing security to protect life and property, servicing a car does not involve providing personal security.

Are you aware that the loss of an engineering code to another party or customer could mean area's of cover can easily be removed allowing access to area's, external sounder's can be set to 1 min etc etc that will compromise l securityto person's and property, and in some cases serious harm.

As a supplier I assume you are working with equipment stored in a premises, next time your engineer services the system ask him for the code you can then remove a back door off the system, then return after work and aquire the property, go in earlyand put the door back on !! just a thought.

[avcctv]

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm a customer who likes to pay for time & materials to supplement my skills with your expertice and knowledge. I dont expect you to pay for my cockups but I like to be able to expand the system that I purchase as and when I want. If due to incompetance I leave it broken then I expect to pay for your skills and time to fix it fully appreciating that this probably cost me alot more than if I had payed and expert in the firstplace.

I have installed only three systems from scratch but not had any problems. I do read the Building Regs and IEEE guides etc so try and do a proper job!. I am about to start on a DSC system which is my first laptop linked one.

I recently lost the keys to my van and had to take it, (by lorry) log book and proof of ID to my local approved dealer, it cost me in total

[Guest Customer]

Binthere

We are providing security to protect life and property, servicing a car does not involve providing personal security.

Great sentence, and I'm sure it helps sell alarms but how effective is an alarm at protecting life and property?

Protecting against violent crime it is not very effective due to the fact that statistically you are far more likely to

be attacked by somebody you know, or in a street robbery or attack outside the home. Alarms are a good deterant at protecting

property but they are only a deterant and as I'm sure we all know need to be used in conjunction with good locks, lighting etc and common sense. I am aware that

in a small percentage of burglary violence is used but you also need to look at the proportion where violence was used to gain entry, now I'm beginning to bore

myself with statistics.

Regards the car not providing personal security you are joking I'm sure to get a reaction. You must have heard of car-jacking,

and understand the risk to life of defective brakes, leaking fuel lines etc.

I dont want the engineers code to everybodies system just to mine.

I dont understand the fear of me working on my system its my house, my property , my life.

Why should I not be able to work on my system and get it certified afterwards like electrics or get the design certified before hand

obviously paying for the privelge. I can do that with electrics why not an alarm.

Please answer this question as its the crux of my point.

Mr Happy,

What I do know is what I want, and how I want to achieve it. I never profess to know more than you even though in some things it is almost certain but clearly not alarms which are your profession. What I want to do is pay for the skills I dont have and use/learn skills for the future.

I'm glad you are striving to be as skilled as me, keep up the good work it does pay well once your qualified )

Dont understand your last point sorry, never said I didnt want to pay. Think of it like a hobbie do you not do anything around your home , car , boat. When you started did you know everything?

In conclusion, I have no problem PAYING, I do not know MORE than everybody here, I want to LEARN and enjoy expanding and configuring my system.

Kind Regards, I look forward to asking for help if the future when it all goes tits up

[james.wilson]

Great sentence, and I'm sure it helps sell alarms but how effective is an alarm at protecting life and property?

I think an alarm is very effictive at protecting life and property. The insurane companies and banks, post offices, cash in transit people, seem to agree also.

If they are uneffective, you dont want one then? (i know you do but you get the idea)

Intruder alarms are probably the most effictive way of protecting your property. Yes they go hand in hand with physical security, and there is a balance needed

Why should I not be able to work on my system and get it certified afterwards like electrics or get the design certified before hand

obviously paying for the privelge. I can do that with electrics why not an alarm.

If you had a SIA system then i couldnt or wouldnt do this. By all means you can do what you want to your alarm, but doing so may stop it complying to the regs. An intruder alarm, cctv, fire access control system is slightly different, so cannot be compared to an electrician certificating the install.

Lets assume you do a few things

1, install your own custom system perfectly well and is fully compliant with all the regulations.

2, you get an approved company to issue a certificate (assuming 1)

3, we issue certificate.

4, you 'alter' your alarm this may stop the system complying, programming change timer altered etc.

While it is possible for you to install your own system, you cannot work on a certified alarm without being approved your self. With Fire there is a statement in the regs that says if the alarm is not correctly serviced it should be deemed no longer complaint with the british standard. There is no similar statement for intruder.

But if your insurance conmpany have insisted on an approved system, it is expected and usually a condition of the insurance that the system is also routinely serviced. If its not serviced and inspected how can the insurabce company be confident the system is fully working.

As i have said before whilst under contract, if you were a customer of ours i WOULD lock you out of your panel as that is what i have to and want to do. If you choose an unapproved supplier and there are plenty of good ones on here, then you 'could' have full access to your intruder alarm as (as i have said before) the regulations do not have to be enforced with an unapproved supplier (please guys this wasnt a dig).

I understand you have no issue paying for an engineer to reprogram parts of your system. But its unlikly you will find an approved company willing to do this (we would remove the codes for you but then if you wanted us back we would lock it again). We have to ensure integrity of the system and the only way we can do this is to keep you out of certain areas.

May i ask what your profession is?

James

[Guest Customer]

James,

All good points, My points only relate to a Domestic burglar alarm with no link to a response centre and no fire alarms attached and most importantly no contract with anybody.

I think an alarm is very effictive at protecting life and property

I dont think a burglar alarm is effective at protecting life. I could be totally wrong here but I think statistically I am most likely to die from non natural causes in a road accident, but with regards to crime my perception from a quick look at the BCS is that my risk from being killed during a house breakin is far lower than me getting killed whilst being mugged or out on the streets.

The cost savings of having a burglar alarm versus an approved installation seem very low. Take Norwich Union "5% - 15% for having approved locks and/or a burglar alarm installed by a NACOSS/SSAIB/ICON approved installer have been fitted, or the customer is a member of a Neighbourhood Watch Scheme".

So in Norwich Union's view being in a Neighbour Hood watch scheme is as effective as a burglar alarm. Strange as they will offer you a contract for there alarm system for

[Alarm Protection]

Customer,

You have valid points but you aint getting an engineering code of me lol!

You install large computersystems and i presume the security on these systems is very tight.

If a company you have installed for decides to move, do you give them access to every single file so they can play about and adjust functions? There must be levels for people to enter in on these systems like Admin, managers, accounts etc just like customer and engineer on an alarm system.

[Guest Customer]

Scottish Eng,

I dont need the code its being reset for me FOC but thanks for the offer. Had it not been $140 brought a new PCB. This isnt a technical issue for me its a principle. Who owns the alarm me or you? If I own it then by law I have the right to do what I want with it (Remember I have signed no contract). I presume this is why when out of contract Companies will always reset the eng code.

Re My job it really depends on the Company, some are really secure, some you could drive a train through. However the Customer always has the root / sys logins who he allows to use it is another matter. He can do whatever he wants and sometimes they destroy things and it cost huge sums of money in both lost revenue and cost's for consultancy to recover the situations. But they own the software and when they employ you they often contract to own the IPR's as well. Could you imagine if I stored all your banks data and they wanted to move to a different supplier and I wiped the system, it just does not work.

Regards

[Alarm Protection]

Customer,

I would have to say then you own the alarm and i own the engineering code!!!!

[Guest Customer]

Not any more