Who's Responsible.

[Guest jackhaughey]

Hello.

I work for a company who primarily install Structured Cabling. We have recently been Sub-contracted to install cabling for an IP based biometric door entry system.

Upon winning the contract, we enquired as to whether we had to connect to the fire sytem(for door release). The client replied, informing us it was unneccesary.

Now that the Fire System installers are beginning 2nd fix, they are asking the question of how to connect to the door entry. Ergo, the client has now come back to me, with the same question/requirement.

Can somebody please tell me who is responsible. Am i required by law to connect to the fire system - or should the fire system installers connect to my system. What are the legal health & safety requirements.

Obviously I don't want to have to go to the expence of providing additional cabling/equipment to resolve this issue.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated

Jack

[Guest]

In writing?

If so no problem ... if they want you to do it, it's an extra - obviously missed in the initial design spec.

That bit of paper is always a lifesaver.

Always get a signature, or a variation signed for.

[Guest]

Upon winning the contract, we enquired as to whether we had to connect to the fire sytem(for door release). The client replied, informing us it was unneccesary.

Jack

Depends who designed the system. Presumably you did it from drawings from a designer?

The basic minimum which is law is you have to provide a method of egress in an emergency. This varies depending on the type of locks supplied. If maglocks or the like then a break glass is required (double pole in some fire authority areas). Depending of escape routes then you may need break glases on both sides, on the secure side fit an alarm to the breakglass. Mechanical locks normally have a thumbturn which should be protected from casual use (it causes door forced alarms).

The medium level which is a token gesture is the basic level plus an input from a monitor point which sends a signal to the PC to unlock certain door controllers. This is flawed if a controller malfunctions or the fire burns through the one signal cable.

The ideal scenario is a fire relay fitted next to every door controller wired by the fire alarm contracter in FP200 or the like.

I would write to the customer with your suggestions. Ignore the fire alarm contractors they are just advising what is normal practice. Not everybody fits fire relays but it would be nice to have a letter on file saying you offered it. Forget the extra labour your end, the ball is in the fire alarm contractors court for the labour element. From your point of view it would take an extra 10 mins per controller to wire relays.

Dave

Jack

Depends who designed the system. Presumably you did it from drawings from a designer?

The basic minimum which is law is you have to provide a method of egress in an emergency. This varies depending on the type of locks supplied. If maglocks or the like then a break glass is required (double pole in some fire authority areas). Depending of escape routes then you may need break glases on both sides, on the secure side fit an alarm to the breakglass. Mechanical locks normally have a thumbturn which should be protected from casual use (it causes door forced alarms).

The medium level which is a token gesture is the basic level plus an input from a monitor point which sends a signal to the PC to unlock certain door controllers. This is flawed if a controller malfunctions or the fire burns through the one signal cable.

The ideal scenario is a fire relay fitted next to every door controller wired by the fire alarm contracter in FP200 or the like.

I would write to the customer with your suggestions. Ignore the fire alarm contractors they are just advising what is normal practice. Not everybody fits fire relays but it would be nice to have a letter on file saying you offered it. Forget the extra labour your end, the ball is in the fire alarm contractors court for the labour element. From your point of view it would take an extra 10 mins per controller to wire relays.

Dave

Oh yeah and you will need fail safe locks if using fire relays.

Dave

[Guest]

Jack

Oh yeah and you will need fail safe locks if using fire relays.

Dave

Fail safe can still be mag locks with battery back up.

[Guest]

Fail safe can still be mag locks with battery back up.

True, but that's ok. You run the cable from the mags, then through the fire alarm relays and then into the panel. If the relay energises then the power is diconnected, batt backup or not.

Dave

[Guest]

True, but that's ok. You run the cable from the mags, then through the fire alarm relays and then into the panel. If the relay energises then the power is diconnected, batt backup or not.

Dave

True, so the panel needs to introduce power to release the locks hence fail safe.

Was in locksmiths mindset then. Fail safe is to stay locked in power failure, not in alarm.

[spider]

The final say will be with the buildings fire officer or local authority, it is not an automatic right that the fire alarm is interfaced with the access control, breakglass unit may well suffice with fail safe (open) door harware. there are occasions where the door due to security reqirements, the locks fail secure, but the door locks then go on free egress only.

[Guest]

True, so the panel needs to introduce power to release the locks hence fail safe.

Was in locksmiths mindset then. Fail safe is to stay locked in power failure, not in alarm.

Wouldn't that be fail secure?

Dave

[james.wilson]

yeah arnt the above both the same

Fail-safe = when power fails the door is safe ie unlocked

fail-secure = when power fails door stays locked

most cheapy releases (ac things) are fail secure as if you powered em all the time the get a bit hot

[Guest]

yeah arnt the above both the same

Fail-safe = when power fails the door is safe ie unlocked

fail-secure = when power fails door stays locked

most cheapy releases (ac things) are fail secure as if you powered em all the time the get a bit hot

and make a horrible noice brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr