Part 'p'

[Alarm Protection]

Guys this might be another stupid question as the spur is already there for me but from what i have seen the spark has taken the power from a socket so and again this might sound stupid is a socket not spured to one another so this should not be allowed to take power from?? or is it the cable should be the same rating going to the spur??

[JohnCunningham]

Guys this might be another stupid question as the spur is already there for me but from what i have seen the spark has taken the power from a socket so and again this might sound stupid is a socket not spured to one another so this should not be allowed to take power from?? or is it the cable should be the same rating going to the spur??

You should not spur off a spur on a ring main circuit. However if the socket is on the ring main ( and not a spur itself) you can spur off it and if it is a fused spur you can use 1.5mm cable if you want. Personally I wouldn't unless I was 100% sure that only a low load item was going to be connected to it, but there is nothing wrong with it.

[JohnCunningham]

not true

neithers that - this was all clarified in the 2006 update I linked to elsewhere on the forum, as long as the cable exits the building and terminates directly within the housing of the light fitting it is NOT classed as outside and therefore does NOT come under PP notification requirments

All very well if you have access inside in a property for discrete location to put your wiring. You could exit the cable directly into the light, and if you say that doesn't comply, fair enough.

Surely thats almost being obstinate against the rules though. That must be a 1 in a million case. I can't think of one installation I have ever exited a cable directly into a light. Can't think of many properties that would be able to conceal a cable running up an interior wall. Normally customer says security light there please and I say ok. I don't say can you put it around the corner so I can route my cable in a cupboard to drill a hole through the wall. Do you turn down work where youcant exit the cable directly into the light??

[Alarm Protection]

John for the info. Going to do a course in the next few months so all info is helpful.

[Alarm Protection]

Another daft question!

If you are attempting to take a spur of the mains box what circuit would it be taken from??

I presume its not the lights as they could blow so must be the sockets?? Still 1.5mm mains cable?

Jesus im quite happy installng alarms! All info is appreciated.

[Guest anguscanplay]

All very well if you have access inside in a property for discrete location to put your wiring. You could exit the cable directly into the light, and if you say that doesn't comply, fair enough.

Surely thats almost being obstinate against the rules though. That must be a 1 in a million case. I can't think of one installation I have ever exited a cable directly into a light. Can't think of many properties that would be able to conceal a cable running up an interior wall. Normally customer says security light there please and I say ok. I don't say can you put it around the corner so I can route my cable in a cupboard to drill a hole through the wall. Do you turn down work where youcant exit the cable directly into the light??

for the man who crowed about the "comman misunderstandings..." over PP your rather ill informed John, makes me wonder about these 5 day courses

cant see you getting much work either if your running cables all over the outside of a building ( your the pro - its upto you to hid the cable) you sure theres not a single one you`ve actually done properly?

[JohnCunningham]

Another daft question!

If you are attempting to take a spur of the mains box what circuit would it be taken from??

I presume its not the lights as they could blow so must be the sockets?? Still 1.5mm mains cable?

Jesus im quite happy installng alarms! All info is appreciated.

Best of taking it from a socket rather than from the fuse box.Adding conductor to the fusebox would probably by looked at if all went pear shaped as additng a circuit which would be Part P sign off again.

Obviously if there was no socket and the panel was say going into a cupboard which also housed the fuse box ( and you were going part P)you may choose to:

1. Add anew individual circuit. It would be a radial (16A or 6A breaker ) then fused down on the Fused spur to 3A or whatever.

2. Add to the lesser of the lighting circuits, making sure the fused spur was well labeled and using 1.5mm cable, and hope that no one in the future decides to use the fused spur for anything more powerful. It shouldn't overcome the lights trip as the panels only draw low current. If you have lots of mains halogens in the house though, may be option 1 is best so you dont get light tripping problems causing alarm problems.

I generally prefer 1 as it is future proof. Plenty of 2 about though.

[JohnCunningham]

for the man who crowed about the "comman misunderstandings..." over PP your rather ill informed John, makes me wonder about these 5 day courses

cant see you getting much work either if your running cables all over the outside of a building ( your the pro - its upto you to hid the cable) you sure theres not a single one you`ve actually done properly?

If I am rather ill informed so is the NICEIC. look at the contractors pocket guide http://niccertification.com/niceic/mynicei...ed/pocketguide8 it says plain as day that installing garden lighting or a outdoor lighting point or any other outdoor fixed current using equipment is notifiable to Part P.

Who am I to against the advice of largest Part P association. The pocket guides are for contractors not general public they have no ulterior motive to tell me to notify outside lighting. It isn't a conspiracy.

I am an electrician and a full NICEIC contractor and NICEIC domestic installer and not attended any 5 day part P course ever! I don't need to I am qualified! I am also the qualified supervisor that signs off my and my subcontractors work.

I am not here to squabble about it. If it comes down to running a cable 1m across an outside wall or chasing the plaster off Mrs Miggins bedroom wall between her wedding picture and her nightstand or running some trunking up the wall. I think both of the customer and myself would reach the same conclusion.

You surely can't tell me you always exit cables directly into a light. Come on!

I know everyone looks for a "get around" to try and avoid red tape. Sometimes you can get away with it sometime you can't thats all I'm saying.

I don't make the rules, however I do try to follow them. I know it only tounge in cheek but your the one with "look, Regs - if you dont understand them you can always just ignore them" as your foot note.

[JohnCunningham]

Not too big to admit it . Reading the part P online document (p10) it doesn't mention wires going straight into the light it mentions it shouldn't have outside connections. The NICEIC advice however (from the pocket guide) is not notifiable if cable directly into lamp. Bit of a contradiction there.

As to NICEIC I would have to notify if I was running exterior cable ( probably for exposure protection issues) to a security lamp.

But to goverment doc you wouldn't need to as there are no exterior connections. Stick a waterproof junction box somewhere though and you would.

So I guess if your not a registered Domestic installer you follow the goverment route and if you are a domestic installer you have to follow the NCIEIC route ( we have to follow their rules, or we get told off)

This must be why I am adamant on the NICIEC rules and angus on the goverment rules. I think now we can call it a day, thanks for an honorable forum to and fro Angus.

[Guest anguscanplay]

Best of taking it from a socket rather than from the fuse box.Adding conductor to the fusebox would probably by looked at if all went pear shaped as additng a circuit which would be Part P sign off again.

not really a circuit is defined by the breaker NOT the cable coming out of it

If I am rather ill informed so is the NICEIC. look at the contractors pocket guide http://niccertification.com/niceic/mynicei...ed/pocketguide8 it says plain as day that installing garden lighting or a outdoor lighting point or any other outdoor fixed current using equipment is notifiable to Part P.

unless fixed to "the fabric of the building"

Not too big to admit it . Reading the part P online document (p10) it doesn't mention wires going straight into the light it mentions it shouldn't have outside connections. The NICEIC advice however (from the pocket guide) is not notifiable if cable directly into lamp. Bit of a contradiction there.

not really a contradiction is it - no joint, no need to notify

As to NICEIC I would have to notify if I was running exterior cable ( probably for exposure protection issues) to a security lamp.

But to goverment doc you wouldn't need to as there are no exterior connections. Stick a waterproof junction box somewhere though and you would.

which isnt what you said at the start is it?

So I guess if your not a registered Domestic installer you follow the goverment route and if you are a domestic installer you have to follow the NCIEIC route ( we have to follow their rules, or we get told off)

other schemes ARE available - LOL

I think now we can call it a day, thanks for an honorable forum to and fro Angus.

LOL - you dont get off that easily