Bs5839 1988

[Guest Cerberus NI]

I agree however I feel it would be handy to take a brief history lesson as I can happily list all the non compliances to current regs but do not know whether it complied to 1988 regs and hence may still pass inspection but have list of non conformities to current regs. Don't work on many 20 yr old systems but rather be educated than unsure.

In fairness there arew loads of customers out there like this and you'd be probably be wasting your time going to the hassle of compiling a timeline of non-compliance.

However,if you think that it's valid to go down this route then whatever floats your boat!

[esp-protocol]

Current regs are not retro spective, are they not

Not totally true.... the only part of the regs that is retrospective is the maintenance section... as Graeme has said... all systems should be serviced to the new standard and variations/non-compliances recorded.....

[Guest G.J.M]

I agree however I feel it would be handy to take a brief history lesson as I can happily list all the non compliances to current regs but do not know whether it complied to 1988 regs and hence may still pass inspection but have list of non conformities to current regs. Don't work on many 20 yr old systems but rather be educated than unsure.

John

you are giving yourself more work than required.It really does not matter if it complied years ago but what condition it is in now.

I was starting High School when 1988 was wtitten and i have a copy but i,m not going to read again.

All you can do is bring all non compliances to 2002 to your customers attention. The ball is then in their court.

If they give you the old line that "it complied when it was installed 20 years ago" then tell them that their electrics would have complied too but should have been rewired 5 years ago.

[luggsey]

John

you are giving yourself more work than required.It really does not matter if it complied years ago but what condition it is in now.

I was starting High School when 1988 was wtitten and i have a copy but i,m not going to read again.

All you can do is bring all non compliances to 2002 to your customers attention. The ball is then in their court.

If they give you the old line that "it complied when it was installed 20 years ago" then tell them that their electrics would have complied too but should have been rewired 5 years ago.

If I had tried that line on many of my customers I would not have been the one servicing their systems next time round.....

What's wrong with 15/20 year old electricial installations requiring them to be rewired? Sounds a bit daft to me?

[JohnCunningham]

Its not that I want to fill my head with the things of yesterday. Occasionally you come across someone who thinks they know a bit and it is nice to be able to say sorry mate that was in the 1988 code not 2002. You occasionally get these customers and I would prefer to sound knowledgeable than sound stubborn. Sometimes a bit of explanation of the reasoning for the change will make them realise they should upgrade.

Everyone here who worked to the regs before 2002 automatically know a 1988 system when they see it and know the changes to expect, type fault monitoring on panel etc. Which I think is sometimes easier than working it all out as you go along. I am not talking parrot fashion regs here just handy back ground on the odd key topic.

an example is todays work.

faults finding on an L2 system that had T&E on detector and sounder cts. I know they don't comply but I don't know when the regs said. So Guys,

Pop quiz time. can anyone tell me at what date the use if T&E was stopped for detector cts on full L2 system. Was it the 1980 /1988 / 2002 version of the code and was there any exception on dates for red T&E.

Actually same goes for T&E for bell circuits also (although I think that was 1980).

This job was out of my geographical area. My local authority has insisted on fire cable since the flintstones so I have never needed to know the answer.

Tomorrow I can jovially say come on on mate this has not complied for 20 years, about time you did something. Which will go down better chastising him for not changing it before. That was I'll probably get the install work and chase him up for annual servicing.

John

[Adi]

Not totally true.... the only part of the regs that is retrospective is the maintenance section... as Graeme has said... all systems should be serviced to the new standard and variations/non-compliances recorded.....

Now i thought that was wrong, but im not arguing.

But my point was, if T&E was used, as allowed in previous regs, then the current regs dont force you to ripped out the T&E and replace it with fire rated cable, ect

[esp-protocol]

Now i thought that was wrong, but im not arguing.

But my point was, if T&E was used, as allowed in previous regs, then the current regs dont force you to ripped out the T&E and replace it with fire rated cable, ect

Well if it wasn't retro you would have to accurately date the install of every installation and service against not only the appropriate BS year, but you would also have to know what amendments applied at the time as well..... it would be impossible!!

Absolutely true Adi... you can't be forced to change the wiring... this was the saving grace of the old Fire Certificate... but if you tell your customer he is now personally responsible for the complete fire safety and risk assessment of his building, would he still be prepared to sign the RA and keep his twin and earth knowing he may have to justify that decision in court if the worst happens and his 20 year old wiring could be to blame??

Would you sign your name to that assessment??? !!!

..... big decision !!

Personally I would recommend to my client that their old system was obsolete and the wiring out of date and to replace the lot with something that met current standards....

[luggsey]

Well if it wasn't retro you would have to accurately date the install of every installation and service against not only the appropriate BS year, but you would also have to know what amendments applied at the time as well..... it would be impossible!!

Absolutely true Adi... you can't be forced to change the wiring... this was the saving grace of the old Fire Certificate... but if you tell your customer he is now personally responsible for the complete fire safety and risk assessment of his building, would he still be prepared to sign the RA and keep his twin and earth knowing he may have to justify that decision in court if the worst happens and his 20 year old wiring could be to blame??

Would you sign your name to that assessment??? !!!

..... big decision !!

Personally I would recommend to my client that their old system was obsolete and the wiring out of date and to replace the lot with something that met current standards....

20 year old T&E installed correctly will be good for decades to come!

PVC which is not exposed to mechanical or UV damage should outlive us all!

[esp-protocol]

20 year old T&E installed correctly will be good for decades to come!

PVC which is not exposed to mechanical or UV damage should outlive us all!

Don't shoot the messenger.... just explain to the judge why you know better than Mr Todd and the rest of the BSI Committee who have recommended better cables...........

[luggsey]

Don't shoot the messenger.... just explain to the judge why you know better than Mr Todd and the rest of the BSI Committee who have recommended better cables...........

Don't misunderstand me, I didn't say PVC-PVC was the best, just that it can't be condemmed because it is 10/20 years old.

Of course there are better cables, there always will be, why don't we tell all customers to replace Firetuff with MI because it's better!!!!! If PVC-PVC was good enough to meet the regs when installed there is no reason to change it unless the system is upgraded to analogue or the building is renovated or extended. If there was a fire and a death I honostly don't believe a correctly maintained system wired in PVC-PVC to relevent standards would be somehow shown to have contributed to a fire or death. Properly maintained and installed there would be no comeback on the person responsible for signing the RA IMO. Even if there had been a small fire/fault that damaged the detection circuit that stopped a fire being detected how could culpibility be placed on the person signing the RA of a system correctly installed to relevent standards? Show me the case where this has happened and I will accept your point.

Now if you stated on a service form the cables were damaged or showing signs of damage or incorrect installation and there was a fire that was contributed to this there would be poo hitting the fan!