En54 Vs Bs5839

[Number2]

Hello everyone.

Hope your all well and enjoying the first week of the new year. My new year brought a suprise when i was asked to commission a contractors job, something im fairly used to. What got the hair on my back standing up and sent shivers down my spine was the panel(Bardic Zircon). All the previous companies i worked for in my past 7 years i have been working in the industry i havent really come across EN54 panels. My question really is what are the differences and should i really be signing the system off to BS standards? Also whilst im on the subject does EN54 bring with it new regs, the contractor who installed the system wired zone within a zone making the detection one and call points another, he had only used one sounder circuit and wired the mains in T+E. Needless to say i didnt sign it off but did spend my friday rewiring his 'work' to what i call BS5839.

Pete.

[Guest Cerberus NI]

Hello everyone.

Hope your all well and enjoying the first week of the new year. My new year brought a suprise when i was asked to commission a contractors job, something im fairly used to. What got the hair on my back standing up and sent shivers down my spine was the panel(Bardic Zircon). All the previous companies i worked for in my past 7 years i have been working in the industry i havent really come across EN54 panels. My question really is what are the differences and should i really be signing the system off to BS standards? Also whilst im on the subject does EN54 bring with it new regs, the contractor who installed the system wired zone within a zone making the detection one and call points another, he had only used one sounder circuit and wired the mains in T+E. Needless to say i didnt sign it off but did spend my friday rewiring his 'work' to what i call BS5839.

Pete.

Morning Pete - you can have multiple zones on the same horizontal plane (ie - smokes zone 1 ground floor and MCP's zone 2 ground floor) but you can't have a single zone over multiple horizontal planes (unless the total floor space does not exceed a certain area - I'm in a hotel residents bar with no access to my lappy so won't quote figures at this stage!!).

Can I ask how many people have seen systems commissioned to 5839:2002 using an Advanced addressable without the zonal LED board??Newton and co. should no better

[Number2]

I never thought zone within a zone was acceptable by our standards today for whatever reason you can come up with. Even for bad practice's sake i would never do it, but didnt know if EN54 had its own rule that oks this practice that i mentioned above. I recently worked on a Advanced panel and wondered where the LED display had got to, this would explain why. So C-Tec are EN54 right? Do i need to be aware of anything in particular when working on these systems, the only reason i ask is i know alarm activation times are different but dont know any more than that(i tell a lie MCP's have to 10s as oppose to 4s and fault times differ slightly).

[luggsey]

I never thought zone within a zone was acceptable by our standards today for whatever reason you can come up with. Even for bad practice's sake i would never do it, but didnt know if EN54 had its own rule that oks this practice that i mentioned above. I recently worked on a Advanced panel and wondered where the LED display had got to, this would explain why. So C-Tec are EN54 right? Do i need to be aware of anything in particular when working on these systems, the only reason i ask is i know alarm activation times are different but dont know any more than that(i tell a lie MCP's have to 10s as oppose to 4s and fault times differ slightly).

I just saw your sig file, I have evaced large factories and a big council office block and a shopping centre! none were my fault as such! All were faulty kit events, I have never yet evaced a hospital thank goodness!

I heard about one bod who activated a "special" alarm shall we say at DML in Plymouth (Shipyard), bet the //.B.W.F.// hit the fan there!

What's the worst evac anybody here will hold up their hand to....?

[Guest G.J.M]

Morning Pete - you can have multiple zones on the same horizontal plane (ie - smokes zone 1 ground floor and MCP's zone 2 ground floor) but you can't have a single zone over multiple horizontal planes (unless the total floor space does not exceed a certain area - I'm in a hotel residents bar with no access to my lappy so won't quote figures at this stage!!).

Can I ask how many people have seen systems commissioned to 5839:2002 using an Advanced addressable without the zonal LED board??Newton and co. should no better

most of Advanced panels i see are without the zone leds and i am seeing this more and more by a National company.

This make the panel EN54 but you could pass the loss of zone indication off as a variaition if all concerned are happy.

I would guess they are being left out to save cash on a quote and no one ever questions it.

I still think Advanced should fit them as standard.

[Guest Cerberus NI]

I never thought zone within a zone was acceptable by our standards today for whatever reason you can come up with. Even for bad practice's sake i would never do it, but didnt know if EN54 had its own rule that oks this practice that i mentioned above. I recently worked on a Advanced panel and wondered where the LED display had got to, this would explain why. So C-Tec are EN54 right? Do i need to be aware of anything in particular when working on these systems, the only reason i ask is i know alarm activation times are different but dont know any more than that(i tell a lie MCP's have to 10s as oppose to 4s and fault times differ slightly).

Am I missing something here???I really can't see why it's bad practice if the zones have been clearly designed and indicated.

[Number2]

Cerberus, i dont think your missing anything at all but maybe i am. I should really go on the BFPSA courses again to brush up and ask these question on training days. From way back when i was the lad i had always been told never wire and always condem a fire alarm that has zone within a zone no if's or but's its just wrong. I can see your point if its labled correctly it would be ok and maybe i was a little harsh to rip out the contractors work and re-do it to how i thought it should be, no real harm done although i know im right about the sounder circuit and the mains cable. Does EN54 allow other variations that isnt allowed in BS5839 and is it a seperate set of regs that applies and where can i find a set?

Edit: I should search Google more and god bless BSi for the laymans terms its website gives.

BS EN 54 Parts 2 & 4 are recognised globally as the standards to which fire alarm control panels and power supplies should conform. In line with the development and increased reach of the Construction Products Directive (CPD) 89/106/EEC the EN54 suite of standards is, part by part being harmonised for CE marking.

In addition to the CPD, BSI is a Notified Body for 17 EU Directives including the Low Voltage Directive 73/23/EC and the EMC Directive 89/336/EC, which are also applicable to fire alarm and detection products.

Currently the following parts of EN 54 contain an Annex Z, which identifies the essential requirements of the CPD to be satisfied for application of the CE mark, allowing free movement of products within the EEC and fall under the remit of the CPD:

BS EN 54: Part 3 Fire alarm devices - sounders

BS EN 54: Part 4 Power supply equipmen

BS EN 54: Part 5 Heat detectors Point detectors

BS EN 54: Part 7 Smoke detectors

[Guest Cerberus NI]

Hmmm,so if you have say a print room and a switch room on the ground floor of a building do you consider it better practice to have these rooms on the general zone for the ground floor with all of the other devices or are they not better to be identified seperately to aid faster response times??

18 years at this and never thought of it as a problem (although I do draw the line in the case where devices on an addressable system are each given there own zone - seen it done on more than one occassion!! )

[Number2]

I thought id do a diagram to show better what i mean, i agree places of high risk eg, print room, boiler room ect might be better off on own zone to help identify the source but i mean a zonal boundaries being conflicting. sorry for the poo paint skills i have.

[sparky999]

I just saw your sig file, I have evaced large factories and a big council office block and a shopping centre! none were my fault as such! All were faulty kit events, I have never yet evaced a hospital thank goodness!

I heard about one bod who activated a "special" alarm shall we say at DML in Plymouth (Shipyard), bet the //.B.W.F.// hit the fan there!

What's the worst evac anybody here will hold up their hand to....?

The worst Evac that happened to me was 1500 students out of a university including the Principal (who was not pleased) But as luck would have it,it didn`t turn out to be my fault. The building had two Morley panels networked and the brief was under no circumstances was any sounders to go. Put panel into walk test and informed security posted by second panel that I was testing. Started testing and got to the fifth floor when all hell let loose and all sounders started. I ran down five flights only to find 1500 stundents and the Principal in the carpark. I got a right lecture from him until I checked the event log and found that someone had reset the second panel. When I went through with Principal we questioned the security staff and one of the Erks owned up and said he was fed up with the panel bleeping and pressed reset. Next thing I got an apology from the Principal and the guy is now looking for a new job.