External Bell Box Document

[amateurandy]

try this

http://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/index/envi...intruder_alarms

not the whole story but as close as i could find in short time allowed

regs

alan

And how is that relevant?

Waltham Forest have adopted "the provisions of the London Local Authorities Act 1992 relating to audible intruder alarms".

So that's one council, and no reference to PD 6662........

If you read my query I was asking where is the law saying DIY installs must comply with PD 6662 (as implied by Angus)?

For what it's worth my local council had something about notifying keyholders too, but the Police and Council lost interest a few years back so don't do it any more, I guess due to admin costs.

[arfur mo]

And how is that relevant?

Waltham Forest have adopted "the provisions of the London Local Authorities Act 1992 relating to audible intruder alarms".

So that's one council, and no reference to PD 6662........

If you read my query I was asking where is the law saying DIY installs must comply with PD 6662 (as implied by Angus)?

For what it's worth my local council had something about notifying keyholders too, but the Police and Council lost interest a few years back so don't do it any more, I guess due to admin costs.

and like i said it was a quick search, not de'facto.

being a council they can pass selective by-laws, but many councils will us already in force laws, they allude to in-place legislation with actual reference.

the noise is allocated to alarm systems, as much as it is to car alarms, so no 'get out of jail' card simply because it is a privately owned/installed alarm system, so very relevant imo

regs

alan

[arfur mo]

this link gets closer section 7

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/ukpga...7-ch1-pb1-l1g73

an offense is being committed is being implied, as states if rings in excess of 20 min's or intermittently for a period in excess of 1 hour.

if you follow more of the links, you might get to the ACT that covers it, but i've had most of a decent bottle of red wine - so over to you (hic!)

regs

alan

(opps! pardon me!!!)

[Guest anguscanplay]

I'd be interested to see the law that says so, can you quote it please?

The chances of the average DIY'er having any awareness of it I would have thought were minimal, as for actually having a copy of PD6662, well at

[amateurandy]

So: "A local authority may designate all or any part of its area as an alarm notification area."

And

"If a local authority decides to designate an area as an alarm notification area it must

[magpye]

Various laws do such as Notification (if applicable) and Noise Pollution/Nuisance, but what says you MUST comply with or follow PD 6662 to the letter?

As we all know (bar one) buying a DIY kit from a local electrical shop has no reference to PD:6662, the DIYer can do what he likes with his own system.

Of course, the opposite will be said BUT there will be no mention of the relevant section in the regs that are being misunderstood.

If these details were given it would stop this often argued about discussion dead (one way or the other)

"(but is it as good as Leon I hear you ask)"

At least you will get a straight answer

[Guest anguscanplay]

As we all know (bar one) buying a DIY kit from a local electrical shop has no reference to PD:6662, the DIYer can do what he likes with his own system.

Of course, the opposite will be said BUT there will be no mention of the relevant section in the regs that are being misunderstood.

If these details were given it would stop this often argued about discussion dead (one way or the other)

"(but is it as good as Leon I hear you ask)"

At least you will get a straight answer

by definition if someone says they are fitting "an alarm..." it has to meet the description of one and that description is PD662

you still dont get it do you magpye - there doesnt (if there is one ) need to be a line that says " er my diy`er, you need to read this if your diy`ing" its an implyed requirment same as anything in life that has a set of standards (back to my old favourite - you dont need to have read the highway code to pass your driving test do you now?)

HOWEVER HAVING SAID THAT

the wiring regs (which do apply to a diy`er) do say ALL INSTALLATIONS HAVE TO COMPLY WITH...... a suitable recognised standard and even the best radio kit still connects to the mains (I`m ignoring the real cack on purpose there) and the current recognised standard for an alarm installation is PD662 (for now ), it would be no good in this litigatious day and age to follow the 16th but not PD

so the question once again is - why are you so keen to see non standard, lashed together kits causing annoyance and disruption whilst devaluing the effectivness of a genuine recognised installers system?

[arfur mo]

by definition if someone says they are fitting "an alarm..." it has to meet the description of one and that description is PD662

sorry Angus,

i think your mixing up 'trade description act, with what is common law.

a milkman decide's he want's to fit an alarm, the definition is his and apart from electrical regs he can fit as, how and what he jolly well wants, he will not be prosecuted for it. he can even build his own control panel based on a design from Every Day Electronics (circa 1968) and be within the law.

the legalities will only fall around his ears if he say stick a siren on a grade 1 building, or the thing goes tits up and causes noise pollution which would then need to be complained about by neighbours or Police. contravenes so safety or building regs may affect in someway, but even then he is likely to find nothing will happen unless the worst occurs or it's picked up on HIPS when he comes to sell.

for the trading pro there is case history with the OFT, as a 'pro' if we state we will install an alarm system but stae any standards so don't say to PD or BS or APCO we have done what we said we will do, even if it is with tin cans or bottles on string, it is still an alarm system for the purpose of description, i'd hope a pro would not do so but just stating what i know of the law.

for a prosecution to be effective we have to state or imply we will install to those standards to fall foul of any trading standards legislation. but accepting should there be a break-in and the system not detect due to bad design the pro could be sued for bad design or duty of care, but the diy'er gets nada in that respect.

really the point you try to make is in honesty a fairly academic one, how often have we seen for ourselves companies, including big named ones, doing atrocious works even pictures of it in here, yet rare a prosecution is made even if a complaint was raised in the 1st place.

while always wanting standard tio be of the best in an individuals case there is no compulsion to attain them, but if you want to continue to bang the drum on this - i'll happily hand over my commanders level 'interference officer' badge you bestowed on me.

regs

alan

[Guest anguscanplay]

sorry Angus,

i think your mixing up 'trade description act, with what is common law.

nope not at all ( tbh i didnt bother reading any further than this) we should have a list of urban myths

everybody seems to think anyone can do anything they want - you can`t in most things in life and in the alarm side its even easier

if it connects to the mains then it has to comply with regs.... the regs for an alarm are covered by BS7671 and PD 6662 the fact your DIY`ing doesnt mean you dont have to comply

what if a sounder that because the install doesnt meet regs was to sound all night - you say thats OK then ? or the person didnt bother with the earth and has a fatal shock - your saying thats OK then ? you can`t have one without the other as there both covered by the same regs and the regs, your insurance, negligance claims and BOBs granny say you have to follow the regs see ?

real world you follow regs (whever you know you are or not ) and its up to you to find out what they are

[arfur mo]

nope not at all ( tbh i didnt bother reading any further than this) we should have a list of urban myths

everybody seems to think anyone can do anything they want - you can`t in most things in life and in the alarm side its even easier

if it connects to the mains then it has to comply with regs.... the regs for an alarm are covered by BS7671 and PD 6662 the fact your DIY`ing doesnt mean you dont have to comply

what if a sounder that because the install doesnt meet regs was to sound all night - you say thats OK then ? or the person didnt bother with the earth and has a fatal shock - your saying thats OK then ? you can`t have one without the other as there both covered by the same regs and the regs, your insurance, negligance claims and BOBs granny say you have to follow the regs see ?

real world you follow regs (whever you know you are or not ) and its up to you to find out what they are

sodo you want the badge back?

well you should read it all just out of courtesy, as i took the time to explain it all, otherwise your just spouting from ignorance of the full argument's (nothing new there then folks ).

you shifting your argument and blustering to boot dear boy, the thrust of your argument is you feel compliance to alarm regs is mandatory for diy and pro alike, you backed this up by claiming in order to conform to mains wiring regs the systems have to comply to PD etc.

apart from the 'it expert' and the electronics hobiest, lets assume most diy will buy a ready made panel from where ever, and that if the panel is relatively new it will comply with regs for the level it was designed to be installed at

so here is a thought for you to ponder everyone, the diy installer is highly unlikely to ever perform an acurate risk assessment, then allocate a grade to the systems design and affeting choice of kit.

so not doing so makes any such system illigal in Angus's reasoning, even if it complies in every other aspect jails ar gonna be real full real quick in that case, and the 'shed' are going to be sued out of buisness for ading and abetting just because they sold it to them

now apart from the fact (which you would have seen had you read on) i deliberately stated those regs should be complied with along with noise abatement act, many don't and will never comply out of ignorance or cost, and will never ever likely be prosecuted unless the worse happens, and maybe then and only then the book might just be thrown at them.

also anyone can buy an alarm kit which will work completely off batteries (yee gods i cut my teethe on them ) without any legal compulsion to follow the regs so affectionately adhered to by the quality trade.

i could run that system off a 240 - 12 volt sealed power pack from maplins, anything connected to the low voltage side will not contravene any regs as long as it is kept out of wet area's.

regs

alan