Diy Regulations / Standards

[arfur mo]

(SELV - Small Expendable Launch Vehicle [NASA program])

sounds like the mother-in-laws latest broomstick

ooops! think she herd me, i can hear sounds of a re-entry

btw Angus, i think your 'staff' need a pep talk, whats only being 7 years old got to do with it? i was still going up chimneys at that age - so was my dad .

lets try to untangle it here, a bit at least

the original question might be academic, as imo like angus i don't think a diy installer can ever comply with the standards in full, for even a bells only system. i'd say this just on i don't see how they can ever do a proper risk assessment (comparable to trade) which is now a crux feature to comply with EN/PD regs, now throw in stock levels, 24 hour call out x 365, pm's, trained engineers, calibrated meters, staff levels blah blah....adinfinitum.

from my research, and Angus will might be happy at this bit from me - anyone, even a diy'er could (and i express could) get into grief if they contravene the building regs adherence (which obviously encompass part p regs) when installing their system. regardless of part p, if the BCO decides that the alarm works has to be rectified, they have the power of enforcement and they don;t need part p to back it up, leading possibly to a court order if needed to exert their will.

imo in 'real life' that would be a bit extreme for it to happen, you'd have to be real unlucky to even find a BCO who would look at alarm works that way, but you can't ignore the possibility however low risk as angus might change his job .

if you do get the 'jobsworth' they could get very 'sticky' over an alarm systems installation, and whether they are right, or wrong it could get very expensive to fight it.

there is a lot in EN/PD with which we comply, but that has nothing to do with building regs, its good practice for alarms, AND as theoretically a diy install simply can't comply no matter how well installed, there is no penalty in not installing to emulate those standards, well - that i can see.

regs

alan

[amateurandy]

when you did yours there wasnt one

now there is, its called part p of the building regs and you`ve got the pdf on your machine - people can stick there heads in the sand all they want but its still there when they come back up for air.

Yes, and I've read it and will do so again before I do (or commission) any more electrical work. Part P has been reasonably well publicised to the public, though no doubt there are many who've never heard of it and need to know.

I haven't bought any electrical stuff lately (except appliances and a plug-in extension lead) so I don't know if the places that sell cables etc publicise it; one would hope they do.

However, what I did to install my alarm would have been non-notifiable anyway. And as has been pointed out (and I agree) there are other regulations that one MUST abide by, just not all the standards you refer to.

Believe it or not I, along with the OP presumably, would actually like to know what is A the law and B good practice for DIY-ers installing an alarm, but so far there's not much firm evidence been properly presented here. I'd like to see something definitive, if it was good enough Dave could put it on the main site.

[arfur mo]

as andy just said,

one of the big issue's is even if you have heard of part 'p', hard getting a copy without paying for it, and if succesfull then getting one the public can actually understand (just look at us lot), it is difficult if not impossible (just try googling part p).

without a copy of it, how on earth do they know what they can and can't do? who is going to fork out for a set of regs before installing their alarm system themselves, just to find out what is notifiable and whats minor works and perhaps it is not notifiable?

designed to improve safety and reduce accidents, Part P actually leaves the door wide open for the more unscrupulous tradesmen, who having got self certification can raise expensive charges for works which are not actually notifiable, and how will JP be ever be likely to know?

the full sp might be available free and should be imo, (i've not found a download). so if to get a copy it has to be paid for (and before anyone 'snipes' it's not about me), but human nature decree's not to spend money on something which is not patently obvious you need, and especially if viewed as a 'one off' how many amendments and implications.

he above is no attempt at any 'get out' by me, just relating to life's practicalities and human nature.

regs

alan

[amateurandy]

I had no trouble finding part P documents online at the ODPM web site (now changed to.....?).

I got 2 - a 2-page "brochure" for householders and the full thing.

The brochure "New rules for electrical safety in the home" looks like it's only concerned about 240v mains wiring, you have to read the full document to realise that other things "might" be included.

And the emphasis is really on notification, not about the rules for doing the work properly and safely.

[arfur mo]

I had no trouble finding part P documents online at the ODPM web site (now changed to.....?).

I got 2 - a 2-page "brochure" for householders and the full thing.

The brochure "New rules for electrical safety in the home" looks like it's only concerned about 240v mains wiring, you have to read the full document to realise that other things "might" be included.

And the emphasis is really on notification, not about the rules for doing the work properly and safely.

i did find the same document, thought it was as much use imo as a conversation in a pub at chucking out time, very vague regarding low voltage. and given you and i were looking for that info, it was so easy for anyone to overlook the reference's or not even be prompted by it.

i did find a lead to a government site stating it could be down loaded, but the url did nothing after pressing it, just said waiting for..... then bombed out, so probably they were downloading a load of private data again -in order to stick it on cd's and loose it .

regs

alan

[topalarms]

your both still tied up on the notification elemant to Part P -

there is an exemption to NOTIFYING certain works, not an exemption to complying with the rest of the requirments if the work does not need notifying

I`ll try and run through this once more for you Tops

Buildng regulations Part P says " you need to install safely........" so to show compliance with that requirment you need to show you "installed safely...." the only practical way to do this is by complying with the published British Standard, which for wiring in the UK is BS7671,BS7671 also says you need to install EACH element "safely......." and the only practical way to do this in the case of an alarm ssytem is to comply with EN/PD662:2004

so we have a law Part P which HAS to be complied with and a means of complying - the fact "its only 12v........" and " I thought i could avoid it by not going near the bathroom....." or "well no ones ever going to know........" are irrelevant.

No Arfur you cant do one bit (minor works certs for the electrical install) and ignore the other bits, yes its unlikely your going to get sent to jail for not complying with the requirments of building regs but then again you (or your kin) might need to sell your house one day too ( possibly to pay the travel costs if your non " installed safely....." control unit did cause the fire that destroyed a row of terrace houses)

THERE IS A LAW - IT`S BUILDING REGS

Angus

ps - Tops - a pir in a kitchen is non notifyable BTW - its not classed as a special location for ELV curcuits

All very impressive but still nothing to do with DIYers having to comply with EN/PD/BS - again, they don't.

Notifying is what Part P is all about unless you are qualified & registered as a Part P installer and then you don't need to - if you're not and what you are doing doesn't require notification then Part P is irrelevant.

Joe Public buys his alarm from B&Q, plugs the panel into the hall socket, wires the PIRs like a washing line through the house and then fits the bellbox - what are you going to tell him to do about Part P?

It is of course necessary to work safely, but there is nothing to stop a DIYer or Alarm Installer fitting a fused spur, (other than in kitchen, bathroom & special location), and an alarm system, (wired or otherwise) without having to worry about falling foul of Part P.

Now of course if DIYer or Alarm Installer starts to work as a kitchen fitter after he's finished the alarm and he isn't qualified as per Part P or doesn't notify then he's in trouble.

[arfur mo]

recently you had a pop at my spelling - i embolden text for reference to glass houses

your both still tied up on the notification elemant to Part P -

there is an exemption to NOTIFYING certain works, not an exemption to complying with the rest of the requirments if the work does not need notifying

no, that is not what i'm saying, if nothing in your total works is notifiable - then end of (regarding part p), mind you perhaps we should certificate it as none notifiable, or it could be our opinion against another's at a later date. i think/hope everyone accepts you still have to exercise good safe and professional practices, and your product performs as designed and as described being fit for the purpose.

I`ll try and run through this once more for you Tops

Buildng regulations Part P says " you need to install safely........" so to show compliance with that requirment you need to show you "installed safely...." the only practical way to do this is by complying with the published British Standard, which for wiring in the UK is BS7671,BS7671 also says you need to install EACH element "safely......." and the only practical way to do this in the case of an alarm ssytem is to comply with EN/PD662:2004

i'm not arguing with most of that to that upto BS7671. EN/PD6 is not a reference for safety guidance in its own right because it has not laid down chapter and verse any methods of installing the wiring, it refere's to the BS 7671 as being the required minimum standard, as it refers to using equipment made and conforming to the manufacturing standards conforming to the appropriate grade.

so we have a law Part P which HAS to be complied with and a means of complying - the fact "its only 12v........" and " I thought i could avoid it by not going near the bathroom....." or "well no ones ever going to know........" are irrelevant.

that interpretation is where we mainly at loggerheads, but then it is very poorly and losely defined. even if installing mains sockets, there is a minimum distance required between the wet area or taps or the socket/appliance 1.6 mtrs i think. so if you have a large en suit or kitchen diner and keep your alarm wiring away from either the sinks or the sockets as i read it, you won't contravene part p and you don't need to notify or certificate it either, not that i end to blast wires all over the place anyway.

No Arfur you cant do one bit (minor works certs for the electrical install) and ignore the other bits,

thats not what i'm saying Angus, the whole works is considered minor, not just a bit of it. if you can fit a spur to an existing ring as minor works well i see no problems.

yes its unlikely your going to get sent to jail for not complying with the requirments of building regs [,] but then again you (or your kin) might need to sell your house one day too ( possibly to pay the travel costs if your non " installed safely....." control unit did cause the fire that destroyed a row of terrace houses)

fortuntely i live in a semi-detached, the assumption here is i would by default install unsafely, i've seen many an install from diy, one man band and full NSI gold where i'd be ashamed to own up to the workmanship, but did not make most of them a hazard.

THERE IS A LAW - IT`S BUILDING REGS

Angus

ps - Tops - a pir in a kitchen is non notifyable BTW - its not classed as a special location for ELV curcuits

yes there is building reg/law, but the scope of it still remains a matter of opinion and/or conjecture in relation to alarm systems in the absence of case law.

regs

alan

[Guest anguscanplay]

All very impressive but still nothing to do with DIYers having to comply with EN/PD/BS - again, they don't.

Notifying is what Part P is all about unless you are qualified & registered as a Part P installer and then you don't need to - if you're not and what you are doing doesn't require notification then Part P is irrelevant.

Joe Public buys his alarm from B&Q, plugs the panel into the hall socket, wires the PIRs like a washing line through the house and then fits the bellbox - what are you going to tell him to do about Part P?

It is of course necessary to work safely, but there is nothing to stop a DIYer or Alarm Installer fitting a fused spur, (other than in kitchen, bathroom & special location), and an alarm system, (wired or otherwise) without having to worry about falling foul of Part P.

Now of course if DIYer or Alarm Installer starts to work as a kitchen fitter after he's finished the alarm and he isn't qualified as per Part P or doesn't notify then he's in trouble.

you just dont understand Part P do you ? I aint goint to explain it again in detail just this - its nothing to do with NOTIFYING it deals with the safety of an electrical installation and it applies to ALL electrical installations in a dwelling NOT JUST THE BITS YOU HAVE TO NOTIFY

[Guest anguscanplay]

Believe it or not I, along with the OP presumably, would actually like to know what is A the law and B good practice for DIY-ers installing an alarm, but so far there's not much firm evidence been properly presented here. I'd like to see something definitive, if it was good enough Dave could put it on the main site.

Andy - theres no line of text, same as theres no line of text says you cannot do your own gas work - but we all know no one DIY`es gas work, its the same now with any electrical work, be it 240v ac or 12v dc, just the publicity is centered on notifying, once thats sunk in they`ll start pushing the standards elemant, till then its up to the trades to preach the message

regardsA.

recently you had a pop at my spelling - i embolden text for reference to glass houses regsalan

you`re just clutching at straws now LOL

[arfur mo]

you just dont understand Part P do you ? I aint goint to explain it again in detail just this - its nothing to do with NOTIFYING it deals with the safety of an electrical installation and it applies to ALL electrical installations in a dwelling NOT JUST THE BITS YOU HAVE TO NOTIFY

lets try this,

your i think mistakenly a holding up part p as being the source of the main sanction, where you get misled inthis (imo) is using part p to govern after it drops out at th epoint of being minor works. and thats where it should be best safety practice's. if alarms are a minor works thats the end of part p surely? like i said earlier, we still have to apply best practices regardless, or risk blowing up clients, not the best thing to do , especially before they pay you .

if your opinion was acurate, surely by now many sparks at least would muster to your cause?

regs

alan