Virgin & Talk Talk - Digi Not Communicating

[reddevil]

Its the delay in signal transmission my man,look up "loop unbundling",apparently all third party providers need to be prefixed with 1280 to put the call back on to BT's equipment,but if the third party provider has installed it's own equipment in the phone exchange then i'm affraid its's G.A.M.E. O.V.E.R...........

[amateurandy]

Its the delay in signal transmission my man,look up "loop unbundling",apparently all third party providers need to be prefixed with 1280 to put the call back on to BT's equipment,but if the third party provider has installed it's own equipment in the phone exchange then i'm affraid its's G.A.M.E. O.V.E.R...........

How definite is this (re own kit)?

In my area TalkTalk have just installed LLU phone kit and are heavily marketing "free broadband" as a result. Will anyone/everyone with monitored alarms get problems if they take this up or is it dependant on the monitoring technology (and if so how?).

I just get involved on the broadband fall-out but it helps to know so as to advise people.

Virgin is 100% cable in my area, so obviously different.

Not sure what other LLU phone providers there are though - is Tiscali in that game too?

[spider]

We have just had the 'upgrade' by talktalk and happily the digi works just fine.

[IPAlarms]

Its the delay in signal transmission my man,look up "loop unbundling",apparently all third party providers need to be prefixed with 1280 to put the call back on to BT's equipment,but if the third party provider has installed it's own equipment in the phone exchange then i'm affraid its's G.A.M.E. O.V.E.R...........

Here is a good reference of what is going on... http://www.samknows.com/broadband/

There are some in the industry that would like you to think it's "GAME OVER" and will happily sign you up for their mega-bucks ACPO+BSIA+NSI+SSAIB approved IP+GSM+GPRS+PSTN+ISDN+VPN+DIAL-UP+BELLS+WHISTLES quadruple redundancy, mega encrypted, un-hackable, private network, managed solution - but it's really not that bad - honestly

My company have a simple, low cost, plug and play solution to everything technical that's going on, but unfortunately, what we cannot do is overcome the archaic attitude that prevails in UK ARC's. :'(

[IPAlarms]

We have just had the 'upgrade' by talktalk and happily the digi works just fine.

Herein lies the problem. Spider and his customer are unknowing victims of his inspectorates' complete lack of aforesight and ability to handle what has been happening in the UK for years now with the onslaught of IP.

Don't take this the wrong way spider, but you've just moved into a whole new world of IP (even though nobody bothers to tell you that up front) and sending a couple of succesful test signals through to the ARC does not mean that the "digi works just fine". In the IP world, what that means is that the network was operating under stable conditions and you were able to get a couple of good signals through to the ARC - this time.

What you really need to do is wait for the next time Britney Spears or Paris Hilton post their latest sexual romp live on the internet and then try a couple more test signals. My point is, your digi may very well work when the network is not under any major load, but may NOT work when it is under strain. I'll bet your customer has absolutely no idea that this is the case.

Your digi talks analogue until it hits the TalkTalk IP network, at which stage they convert it to digital. It then gets converted back to analogue as it hits the telco provider equipment of the ARC. This in itself is not the end of the world, but the problem is that the IP portion of the journey uses codecs that are designed to give the best possible VOICE quality. They don't give a threepenny bit about data traffic and as a result - it gets compressed to death !

I've been repeatedly barking this information on here for a looooooooong time now. Just waiting for the first death from fire or personal attack where a signal does not get through and perhaps it will sink in :!:

[amateurandy]

So why not use equipment that sends analogue signals highly appropriate for a voice-optimised digital network?

(I just know a blame list will appear now...)

[topalarms]

Remember the year 2000 - every pc ever made was going to crash on 1st January 2000, planes would be falling out of the sky so people were advised not to travel by air - it was going to be complete chaos, only it wasn't.

[IPAlarms]

So why not use equipment that sends analogue signals highly appropriate for a voice-optimised digital network?

Cost.

At the end of the day, the customer has usually had a digi in for a number of years working perfectly fine. He doesn't see why he should have to change it and he thinks it's your job to make it work without it costing him a fortune.

He remembers the BT number changes when you had to go out and fit a new chip. He remembers the time ACPO insisted on an abort and confirmed signal and you had to fit a new module and/or another new chip.

Now he's heard from his mates down the pub that his telco provider is sending calls over IP to save a few quid and his alarm may, or may not work any more.

You have 3 choices:

1. Ignore it as topalarms suggests. Advise the customer that there's nothing to worry about as BT have said it will all be OK. Nothing bad happened with Y2K, so nothing bad will happen now.

2. Find a solution at a reasonable cost.

3. Get as much out of the customer as you can - he's only a dumb customer! Upgrade him to one of the new "super networks" and cash in.

[topalarms]

Ignore it as topalarms suggests.

On the contrary, I don't suggest ignoring it - much rather use it as an opportunity to upgrade signalling to dual-path thereby increasing the customer's security to their benefit.

However I do believe that the current speculation of chaos and malfunction is likely to prove to be just that, speculation that proves to be unfounded. I have experienced digi's on Telewest/ntl/Virgin and TalkTalk and have yet to experience any of the 'expected' problems.

[IPAlarms]

On the contrary, I don't suggest ignoring it - much rather use it as an opportunity to upgrade signalling to dual-path thereby increasing the customer's security to their benefit.

If it's for THEIR benefit - why were they not already on Redcare or DualCom?

I'm not trying to knock how some companies take every opportunity to squeeze that bit extra out of their customers, just don't try to disguise the fact by pretending it's for their benefit and not yours.

A simple 50 quid IP module will do the job with only a quid or two increase in monthly monitoring cost - which the customer probably won't mind paying as they get additional line monitoring as part of the service.

However I do believe that the current speculation of chaos and malfunction is likely to prove to be just that, speculation that proves to be unfounded. I have experienced digi's on Telewest/ntl/Virgin and TalkTalk and have yet to experience any of the 'expected' problems.

That's because there is very little traffic on the networks yet.

The UK is 5 years behind the States on this subject and as extensive tests have been conclusive, not speculative, (DIGIS DO NOT WORK 100% OVER IP), every alarm company has to sign a disclaimer with their ARC. Unfortunately, being British - it's not possible for us to learn from other countries as we have the most advanced security industry in the world - right ?

When you have your first failure and the ARC gets wind that part of the signalling path was over IP - they will drop you like a hot potatoe. They may be archaic - but they are not behind the door when it comes to defending themselves.