Some Advice On Components - Pir, Magnetic Contacts Etc

[benmc]

Hi All

I was hoping that someone can help me out. We have just moved into a new house and I will be attempting to fit the alarm system.

I will be using a Comfort Panel - I can see from reading the forums this is not really considered by anyone but for me it have some very useful home automation functions ie It will interface with the lighting system etc.

So the decision on the panel is made but this still leaves all the other components to consider and I am looking for some advice on the following

Magnetic Contacts - I can see that I can pick these up for 99p. I am sure these cannot be the best quality. So if I was looking for good quality who should I be looking at? My research came up with Elmdene. Good Idea?

PIRs - I am looking at around 6-8 PIRs in the house. We have no pets so this does not need to be considered. So I guess the simple question is who makes decent PIRs?

I have also seen a number of questions around Dual or Quad tech PIR. Any guidance as to the best?

Panic Buttons - Again I have seen the cheap plastic ones in many houses. I am looking for something higher quality

Finally the Bell Box - this may be harder as the house is Listed Within a Conservation area. So basically the box needs to look good. Again who should I be looking at for Bell Boxes?

Sorry for the many questions. I am hoping that someone can help out and give me some good recommendations for quality components.

Thanks in Advance

Ben

[antinode]

As a rule, you can't go wrong with Elmdene contacts, although to be fair, at the end of the day they are all basically the same regardless of who makes them!

As for movement detectors, each installer will have their favourites. I would go for dual techs over PIR's if you have the choice, although dual techs tend to be a bit "bulkier" than the average PIR. Generally, you do get what you pay for. I have Pyronix KX15DT dual techs at home with no false alarms in nearly 2 years of use. They don't look too bad either.

The higher quality PA buttons are made by CQR. They do a chrome finish model that is well made and looks better than the cheapo plastic types.

For bells, if you want something that won't stand out (hard to come by with bell boxes!), the Texecom Odyssey 4 may fit the bill. It's a quality unit too.

[benmc]

antinode

Thanks for the guidance I will take a look at the products you suggest.

Ben

[arfur mo]

as with anything, not only yhe price but the quality of installation and its design to avoid false alarms counts high too, you could buy the most expensive detector, but place it in the wrong location making it less efficient or more prone to false alarms than a cheapy in the correct position.

if you want some professional, sound well rounded experienced advice, based on 40 years in this trade -:

avoid integrated systems like you would avoid cleaning your 60" Plasma Tv with a pressure washer - full stop.

especially as an amature (with the greatest respects), your likely heading for an expensive heartache otherwise, and thats even if your an IT expert with an indentured electricians background.

if you want integrated ask yourself why? probelem with one section may take out the whole system and can you then fix it? if its to be a show piece of your ability and DIY prowes thats a very bad basis to start with, security is part technology part and a big part bluff, so giving away the secrets in order perhaps to have a conversation or boast (quite often the only reason) weakens the purpose and effectiveness.

please, don't see the above as me being rude or condescending thats not the real thrust, i just want you to think deeper into it as i would face to face.

we do see many such requests (mainly from trekky fans ) in here, its simply is not a good idea in for normal people leading normal live's, thats why most alarms are not intigrated.

if you go ahead i wish you well and every success in proving my doubts and reservations to be wrong - but also if you do have problems (which is highly likely on a 90 -10 on bet) just remember - you heard you would in here 1st.

regs

alan

[billythebellbox]

I have Pyronix KX15DT dual techs at home with no false alarms in nearly 2 years of use.

WOW

[james.wilson]

Arf arf oh arf

While i love to normally agree with you....

Integration is the way forward, future whatever you want to call it, now its how you intehrate your security into your ha package thats the key IMHO

I dont go for a misterhouse setup running everything directly but i do go for and see the benefits of integration through control.

I would strongly advise you have a dedicated solution for your security, ie self contained but use one that allows full 2 way comms, that way you get the benefit of integration with the stableness of dedicated. Some will allow this but there are obvious security implications and you have to understand the stuff we use day to day is not designed ot be easy to work with but designed to be secure.

I myself have commisioned a few large houses with a galaxy integrated into the HA system providing full user info and event details, most do this via a 232 interface into tthe HA controller. That way if the HA controller is having a bad day your security will be fine as its self contained. ALso be carefull how you allow the ha system to control, ie your ha system was not designed to be secure from people trying to defeat it... your normal control panel is, but if the ha system has full control and poor security may as well not bother fitting any doors.

Let us know how it goes.

[benmc]

arfur mo

No offense caused. I have thought long and hard about this and for a while considered and standalone Alarm system but for me the benefits of integration outweigh the disadvantages. I am planning to have Lights, Alarm and Heating integrated, now with some simple rules I hope to minimize the chance of making the alarm ineffective through one of the other systems. For example I would not like to see other elements ie Heating system able to change status of the Alarm side. For me the Alarm section should only ever 'push' status etc out to the other systems.

We were burgled in our old house (no alarm) and this caused us to think long and hard about security within the house. We also spoke to the local police. The general feedback that came back and make sense to me it that the simple things will put a burglar off right away ie Security Lights or Evidence of Alarm Bell Box. Seeing these may well 'push' the burglar next door. Taking this further use of PIRs etc as a further deterrent to a burglar.

I also agree that the best components fitted badly are almost worthless but I would like to start if on the right foot with good equipment. At the end of the day the in the grand scheme of things the price difference is minimal.

There are many other concerns that need to be addressed. For example with a Home Automation System it is very likely to have some ip connectivity. This may also be connected to the ADSL router. All of a sudden you may have opened up your Alarm system to the world/hackers.

On the positive side, I am very happy to realise that my knowledge on alarm systems is not strong but I am very happy to search out answers and ask questions. I cannot get away from the fact that when you strip away all the marketing, the concepts around alarm systems is quite simple - not putting anyone down but lets not forget we are usually talking about 5-20 inputs and 1 or 2 outputs.

Will I be successful? I hope so but you can never be sure

Will a burglar walk away from my house because I have a Bell Box and he can see a PIR through the window? - From what I have heard this may well be the case.

redbull - I do believe Integration will become key in the coming years. Some of the key advantages are simple.

Set the Alarm to Away Mode

All Lights are switched off - Energy Saving

All Radiators are turned down - Energy Saving

Another nice example

My wife comes home late in the evening and pulls into the drive

External PIR detects presence

Lights outside the door come on

Driveway Lights come on

I am sure there are many more examples.

Again - I hope my comments don't offend anyone. I think there is a place for DIY Alarms and also a place for integration. A good experienced alarm installer cannot be beaten. This is the same in any industry, but a bad professional can cause much damage.

Ben

[arfur mo]

hi Ben,

glad you took the advice the way intended, i think your working under miscomprehended conclusions and i'd advise you to ask a few firms in to discuss what you actually want to do and gauge their reactions.

this is not a defensive come back, i/we often get the question "can i fit my own alarm system" and i respond with "yes you can" which is true if you have reasonable motive powers, most fingers, a decent tool kit and basic construction knowledge, and a bit of common sense you will likely make a reasonable job.

i also say "your system will last say 15 years, to do so reliably will require very good to excellent skills (luck is to variable imo to be included), appropriate kit properly selected for the need and most importantly? - planning".

to do that properly imo takes 18 months to train a keen person upto an engineer level to install a basic systems acceptably well (mind you i am fusy), takes 5 years to make him a competent all rounder for install (make that very very fussy) and service (nope! make that extremely fussy) after that he can work on sales and know what he is on about (but if not i simply shoot them - sir alan sugar? pah!).

if you think todays alarm equipment is indigenously reliable and fool proof by default, while it has improved massively over especially recent years, ask why yourself why so many firms have such large service departments - and most if not all their system are installed by professionals. over simplistic for my colleagues but just demonstrating a general point to concideer over fault finding if you have problems.

integration can mean many things to many people, as i would need to know what 'outside' components will be involved, the more complex the requirement the more complex the equipment will likely be needed, so more technical ability, experience and sheer know how will be required to achieve the aim. if you were to see the questions raised in the trade section - just on standard alarms - you would really see what i mean before thinking its all in a book - somewhere.

examples, if you require the lights to be linked which not uncommon for the alarm to bring them on after activated, or as a courtesy light on the porche when setting, later years less popular since the advent of

[arfur mo]

Arf arf oh arf

While i love to normally agree with you....

Integration is the way forward, future whatever you want to call it, now its how you intehrate your security into your ha package thats the key IMHO

I dont go for a misterhouse setup running everything directly but i do go for and see the benefits of integration through control.

I would strongly advise you have a dedicated solution for your security, ie self contained but use one that allows full 2 way comms, that way you get the benefit of integration with the stableness of dedicated. Some will allow this but there are obvious security implications and you have to understand the stuff we use day to day is not designed ot be easy to work with but designed to be secure.

I myself have commisioned a few large houses with a galaxy integrated into the HA system providing full user info and event details, most do this via a 232 interface into tthe HA controller. That way if the HA controller is having a bad day your security will be fine as its self contained. ALso be carefull how you allow the ha system to control, ie your ha system was not designed to be secure from people trying to defeat it... your normal control panel is, but if the ha system has full control and poor security may as well not bother fitting any doors.

Let us know how it goes.

hi James,

over my years i've seen such statements and vaunted ideals, i liken it to the 'tower Hi Fi" that was so popular at one time, great all in one box off one remote (on the fancier systems or you used a billiard cue). then you want a better amp or a better tape deck or a better record player or worse one it packs up - your stuffed both ways.

for me integrated systems have a place in larger buildings which have access control, cctv and alarms, and best with 24/7 staff over watching it, but thats as far as it go's for me. i simply can' t see the sense of bolting into those systems equipment like air con, the blinds going up and down the heateing (other than fa issues)

be an interesting pole of the membership on who has and who has not got integrated systems installed, because if anyone can we can

you want to set it up? in public area i suggest "have" "don't have" - "want" "don't want".

regs

alan

[james.wilson]

Id agree alan but that doesnt provide the level of control that the HA system needs to run efectivly.

The only way is to use serial from the panel to the HA system then it has all the variables it needs.

You can do it on outputs but then it doesnt allow log viewing etc via the i/f