Guest pal_malgan Posted June 21, 2003 Posted June 21, 2003 Hi , great site and thanks to those that helped me with the manuals I recently was asked to remove a DA abacus system connected to redcare from a old church. I did not have the engineers code or know how to use the panal, so when i got there i found the main unit, poped the lid which triggered tamper, which i silenced with the user code. After i found the hold offs for bellbox i wired them to the backup batt and powered down, and removed the system. I got up to the bell box and removed the main screw holding the lid in place, this made the siren go off. I was under the assumption that as long as the hold off was in place adn the neg- trig was not hooked up, the siren would not fuction?. Anyway i silenced it up in the end and removed( slightly deafer than before ) it but i was thinking how do you go about putting the boxes up and servicing them without deffening yourselfs? I Had a look at the box when it was down and the hold off was wired though the tamper microswitch so no wonder it went off. So what do you do in this situation, is it just a case of grim and bear it till the lid is nback on ? or invest in a good set of ear defenders? When ive wired systems before ( not on a professional level ) i connected the lids tamper switch though the tamper return to the panal, so enginnering mode enables me open the bellbox.
Service Engineer Posted June 21, 2003 Posted June 21, 2003 When ive wired systems before ( not on a professional level ) i connected the lids tamper switch though the tamper return to the panal, so enginnering mode enables me open the bellbox. Thats the way it should be done. When some idiot wires it up the other way, then yeah its a case of grin and bear it, or temporarily defeat it by holding down the tamper switch to re-connect the hold off or removing a bellbox battery lead for a while. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Guest andy jinks Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 i work for a nacoss company and to meet the standards we wire the s.a.b neg hold off (D) into tamp feed ,and then put a link from tamp return © into the neg hold off on the bell aswell as bringing a second wire out of the retun to go back to the panel.we use a nova 2 siren that has a 5 second test when you put the battery in then stops . sounds the right way to me
Service Engineer Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 I work for an SSAIB approved company (Same Standards apply) Perhaps its just the preferance of the company you work for, but it doesnt state in the standards that thats the way it should be done, if it does i`d like to see where ?. Im sure youll agree that the idea of ENGINEER mode (besides panel programming) is to stop ALL tamper faults that occur while and engineer is on site doing routine maintenance and services. This includes the BellBox Tampers. The way you describe above with a Nova 2 will still cause the bellbox to sound when the panel is in engineer mode and the engineer removes the bellbox lid. Why would an engineer intentionally wire these up backwards ? Tamper Feed = Hold - Tamper Return = Hold - return through the bellbox tamper circuit to the panel. Fairly simple really. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Guest gsijim Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 Dave, we also discussed this method of wiring on my Scantronic. You didn't like my method of wiring whereas I had only followed manufacturers wiring instruction. I have to say I like your method and that is how my system will get rewired. However, I would imagine the difference in wiring is down to liability. What I mean is that by using your method, which appears to be engineers preferred method, could lead to a less secure system. If your would be intruder had free access to system during day when unset he could enter engineer code at panel (engineer code known by everyone!!) up a ladder, take cover off bell box and disconnect battery and bell without setting alarm off. He could then come back at night when the alarm is set and break in and the external siren will not go off. This is an unlikely scenario I know, but the manufacturer cannot promote that wiring scheme as the system is less than foolproof and leaves the manufacturer wide open.
Guest Gazzerdaman Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 (engineer code known by everyone!!) But the engineer code shouldn't be known to everyone, because it should be different for every indivdual alarm installation. Panels are Rarely left on the default manufacturer code, and usually have a code which only the installing company knows.
Service Engineer Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 Yeah your right gsijim, we have discussed this method. But I honestly fail to see how it could be any less secure. The Engineer code should be known to no one except the Installing company, it should never be left as default if its possible to change it. Also Why have an alarm system in the first place if someone can have access to the alarm in the day if its left unset, surely that defeats the point of the alarm system being installed in the first place, also why would he come back later when he has nothing to worry about because the alarm isnt set ? He would have no need to even touch the bellbox. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Service Engineer Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 Also consider this, if for some reason the Bellbox was to develop a Tamper fault. Then how would you the user be able to silence the alarm ? because with no hold off supply getting to the bellbox, the user entering his code at the panel would have NO effect, wired up the other way the bells would just continue to sound for 20 minutes and unless you were prepared to get up the ladders and shut it up you could do nothing about it. Then your faced with a useless alarm system until an engineer attends site. I`ve serviced and taken over systems fitted by all the major Alarm companies, all of which are NACOSS approved and have not once come accross a bellbox wired up as suggested by your manual or as Andy mentions. As an SSAIB company for the last 18 years, our method of Bellbox wiring has NOT been questioned at any time. We have never failed an SSAIB inspection. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Guest gsijim Posted June 26, 2003 Posted June 26, 2003 Hi guys, I did say my scenario was highly unlikely!!!!!!!!!!!! I was just trying to think of a reason why the manuals were suggesting the opposite of what you do in practice?
Guest andy jinks Posted June 26, 2003 Posted June 26, 2003 ive just gone throu the bs 4737 and dd243 check list and can not find any reason to wire the hold off throu the tamp feed BUT. i assure you that on my next nacoss visit on the 1st of july if i take a bell cover off with the panel in engineer mode and the siren does not go off it will go down as a deviation .i will check the old nacoss sheets tomorow and check the code . but having said all that ,if i was only fitting bells only i would wire it the same way . in my opinion it is a more secure way of doing it . consider a bungalow with a low level siren.? If the bell tamp does develop a fault then it will and does ring for 20 mins ,but if a customer phones with a fault by the time a engineer gets there its stopped anyway. and you could say the same thing with all tampers even in day mode with a ex speaker it can very annoying. remember discussion is a good thing and i am not saying that this way is always the best but the problem with nacoss and ssiab is that they take the common sense away from engineers that want to do it the best way they can . sorry for the rant ,its the nacoss visit comming up.
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