james.wilson Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 a compliant system must not have exposed cables outside of the protected area. But if you want to remove this risk you need to look at a grade 4 system securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.
Guest anguscanplay Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 Just did a quick test of the idea, and I could get round a wired up test zone (just a eol'd keyswitch) in less than 300ms (obviously the prep work takes longer than that! Used the star key function to show status of the zones and it did not show any problems - all stayed normal as though nothing had been touched and nothing activated (before, during the alteration and after it was done, and after turning key....)The stuff done to the cable would obviously be visible and get spotted in time, but if it occured somewhere not checked often then it could get missed before setting an alarm, and then someone could get in.... 50ms would make it a lot harder but probably still not impossible for someone to get around, just a lot, lot harder. The current 300ms does not require special tools or fancy electrics, just stuff easy to get hold of. Doubt it would be a problem in my case (but would be nice to eliminate any possibility) as its only a low risk residential house, and no one is likely to be in around the wires for a long time who knows how to do that sort of thing and who would have a reason to anyway... Protecting the cables as mentioned would solve the problem, so I guess I can just forget about it for now as the risk is so low in my case. Worth bearing in mind if higher risk though, and a run of cable is accessible in a location not viewed often. go on then - tell us exactly how much prep went into "beating an alarm ....." then try and replicate it in real life, I`ll even let you use one of our sites if you want the cable outside is a real problem the 300ms delay isn`t
camerabloke Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 and your pants outside your trousers? Eucam Security Systems 0845 4630 746 www.eucam.co.uk
james.wilson Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 it is doable but indepth knowledge of the internals of the site and system would be required. As well as a non compliant system. The only way to detect it is to use a low tolerance full commed panel in a grade 4 setup. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.
kensplace Posted August 30, 2008 Author Posted August 30, 2008 no tin foil hat, just a inquiring mind that wants to make sure any easy to reduce risks are reduced where possible. After all its unlikely a wire to the bell box would be cut, or the box would be ripped of the wall as most thieves are opportunistic, but there are some that are not, so self actuating bell boxes were invented.... Just because its unlikely, or difficult does not mean someone somewhere wont do it at some point... Same as tamper switches on PIR's etc so people cant lift the lid of them and rejig the cabling inside so it does not trigger an alarm... Something like that would require someone to have access to the pir unattended for a while - just like this with the wires. But its a known risk, so manu's put tampers in..... As for how much prep work, a couple of mins to get some stuff, and a couple of mins to prepare on the bench. Obviously cant go into details on a public forum as to what is done, as that could then be mis-used by people... Real life would take longer as a accessible unprotected cable would be complete in its outer jacket, and probably running down a wall or doorframe or something, so it would take longer as there is less working space than wires on the bench connected to a eol'd switch connected to the alarm... But the principal and how its done is surely the same regardless of whether I am doing it to a test setup on a galaxy on a bench, or doing the same to a cable on a wall going to a same model installed system. Wires are wires... The principal is easy, as long as you can get everything in place without making any stupid mistakes then 300ms is plenty of time to do the final short step.... On a 'real' site that was pro installed, if no cables are accessible then it is not going to be possible to do this (without digging up the walls or floorboards to get at the wires, which would get noticed Im sure!!) but where its a diy job, or a less than perfect pro install where cables are left exposed on a wall or doorframe, if a bad guy had the time alone (for example in a business, it could be a bent cleaner, decorator, alarm engineer, employee etc) with the wires in a location not viewed before the alarm is set for the night, then they could do it.... Especially if multiple people were in the building, proving who did it would be next to impossible without hard evidence.... Plus, worse case - a bad guy did try it and did set of a tamper, they would be long gone from that area before anyone got to investigate it, and the fault would get fixed, but they lost nothing trying.... Like I say though, in my case the risk is very, very low, but if there was a easy way to reduce a risk, why not?
james.wilson Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 like i said grade 4 equipment would detect this. Also an enforced walk test before every arm. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.
Guest anguscanplay Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 Real life would take longer as a accessible unprotected cable would be complete in its outer jacket, and probably running down a wall or doorframe or something, so it would take longer as there is less working space than wires on the bench connected to a eol'd switch connected to the alarm...On a 'real' site that was pro installed, if no cables are accessible then it is not going to be possible to do this (without digging up the walls or floorboards to get at the wires, which would get noticed Im sure!!) but where its a diy job, or a less than perfect pro install where cables are left exposed on a wall or doorframe, if a bad guy had the time alone (for example in a business, it could be a bent cleaner, decorator, alarm engineer, employee etc) with the wires in a location not viewed before the alarm is set for the night, then they could do it.... Especially if multiple people were in the building, proving who did it would be next to impossible without hard evidence.... Plus, worse case - a bad guy did try it and did set of a tamper, they would be long gone from that area before anyone got to investigate it, and the fault would get fixed, but they lost nothing trying.... Like I say though, in my case the risk is very, very low, but if there was a easy way to reduce a risk, why not? can we quote you as a sticky? but no - anyone doing it in real life would have taken the final step before the 300ms becomes an issue
james.wilson Posted August 30, 2008 Posted August 30, 2008 ken also you have indepth knowledge of 'your' system, you knwo what colour does what in which cable. No-one else would have that info. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.