paulrichards Posted October 28, 2008 Author Posted October 28, 2008 but I took the tamper out, so the siren should have sounded, I think I will just replace the bell box, any recommendations ?
arfur mo Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 but I took the tamper out, so the siren should have sounded, I think I will just replace the bell box, any recommendations ? hi paul, no, but i can see why you might think so. the tamper is a 'return' path back to the panel, so the panel 'knows' the cable or siren is missing, lid had been removed or damaged even while unset, it would only operate the siren on panels programmed to do so while unset, as would be required in the latest regs. i'd think likely the setting for bell tamper operating your internal sounders and causing the siren to operate is not selected in the panels software. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 talk about make things confusing your alarm was powered down for over 12months, the back up battery in the bellbox is either flat or knackered through been fully disharged and needs changing, whilst your at it you might as well change the whole lot your new sounder will come with full wiring instructions dont fall off your ladders Angus.
lawandorder Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 but I took the tamper out, so the siren should have sounded, I think I will just replace the bell box, any recommendations ? OK quick lesson, for an external sounder to work you need four wires Positive hold off and negative hold off charge the battery in the sounder and keep a relay energised (in practice it's not a relay in modern sounders it's an electronic switch but relays were used back in the day). If the cable gets cut or the panels gets ripped off the wall the relay become de-energised and connects the battery to the sounder and hey presto, alarm activates. The next two wires are switched negative and negative return. The panel applies a negative to the sounder via the switched negative when activated and drives the sounder using power from the panel. The negative return is a tamper wire, it should always be at negative potential but if the sounder is removed or otherwise tampered with it goes neutral (or in some cases high) the panel detects this change and triggers the alarm. By removing either hold off the external sounder should activate, if it doesn't either the sounder was never fitted with a battery (and many cowboys don't fit them), the battery is faulty (they do fail with age), the sounder PCB is faulty (they do corrode) or as somebody else suggested there may be a link which hasn't been made. (many sounders are fitted with a link to disable the battery during install). Personally I like Texecom sounders but recently fitted one of the new Gardtec ones and was equally impressed with that. Either will work with your panel as will most other decent ones. talk about make things confusingyour alarm was powered down for over 12months, the back up battery in the bellbox is either flat or knackered through been fully disharged and needs changing, whilst your at it you might as well change the whole lot your new sounder will come with full wiring instructions dont fall off your ladders Angus. I do admire your talent for the succinct Angus, if only I could be as concise!
paulrichards Posted October 28, 2008 Author Posted October 28, 2008 Thanks for the replies, I have a 5th wire, for the strobe ). So removing the tamper will only fire the alarm if the tamper is enabled on the panel, right, ok got that. What I removed was the -hold and the +hold, so in theory the alarm should have sounded. The tamper LED on the panel also started flashing. texecoms look good, though cant see the difference between the 1/2/3/4/5 series apart from the "E" versions which seem cut down in terms of features
lawandorder Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 Thanks for the replies, I have a 5th wire, for the strobe ).So removing the tamper will only fire the alarm if the tamper is enabled on the panel, right, ok got that. What I removed was the -hold and the +hold, so in theory the alarm should have sounded. The tamper LED on the panel also started flashing. texecoms look good, though cant see the difference between the 1/2/3/4/5 series apart from the "E" versions which seem cut down in terms of features Yes there is usually a 5th wire but this is only for the strobe and you can use the switched negative to do that as well though most people don't, I had ommited it for clarity as it's not strictly relevant to your problem. Removing the positve hold off should only sound the external sounder but removing the negative will also tamper the panel. This is because the negative hold off goes through the sounder tamper switch and returns to the panel as a negative return (is it making sense now?) I'm not really sure what all the Texecom numbers mean as I don't have much to do with alarms any more but in general they are a good value sounder and fully compatible with all ADE panels. They also have pretty flashing lights, so look like a council house at Christmas. Having said that, the Gardtec one I fitted the other week had a built in spirit level, now that is a work of genius. It can be hard work fitting a bell box of a high ladder on a windy day with a drill in one hand, a pocket full of screws and rawplugs, a selection of screwdrivers in your mouth and a spirit level.
paulrichards Posted October 28, 2008 Author Posted October 28, 2008 yeah so the -VE holdoff has a double role, -VE holdoff and part of the tamper circuit. With 6 wires not sure why not just have the tamper on its own pair like in PIRs
lawandorder Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 yeah so the -VE holdoff has a double role, -VE holdoff and part of the tamper circuit. With 6 wires not sure why not just have the tamper on its own pair like in PIRs The positive hold off is also dual role, not only does it charge the battery but it also acts as a common permanent positive for the sounder and the strobe. In the old days four core cable was commonly used (before PIRs even existed), external sounders and control panels used dry batteries which needed changing every six months because they weren't re-chargeable. External sounders were always wired in four core so I guess alarm makers keep the same protocol for sounders so stuff is backward compatible. PIRs are wired in 6 core but it is actually possible to wire one with four core and still retain tamper protection (even with your panel) but it is easier to keep things seperate and it is easier for finding faults.
A-G Posted October 28, 2008 Posted October 28, 2008 yeah so the -VE holdoff has a double role, -VE holdoff and part of the tamper circuit. With 6 wires not sure why not just have the tamper on its own pair like in PIRs Easy answer. Engineers have to count the wires. They're holding onto the ladders with one hand ........ so they've only got 5 fingers free. Ask them to use 6 wires and they'll fall off the ladders. .... and now the proper answer. It's all about history. The first bells had no strobe and 4 core cable was the norm. so a configuration that triggered the bell, gave self activation and detected tampering was designed using just 4 wires ... and we still use it (for most alarms), with the addition of the strobe trigger wire. . . . PM me for access to the SSAIB members discussion area.
paulrichards Posted October 28, 2008 Author Posted October 28, 2008 I think I its all sunk in now, in essence very simple ..its more the non-standard wire colour coding (red and black should really be +/- power), odd naming of wires, different naming of the same wire between companies, wires that have two purpose with overlapping circuits that was the confusing parts
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