Dvr's Without Or Without Drives

[arfur mo]

if and as the prices do drop, i can see ever widening markets where mechanical drives can't so easily go o matter what capacity, the physical size will drop faster as the capacity is increased making ideal for sports like diving or extreme sports.

vehicle recording systems for insurance claims proof as in America could become more of a 'norm' for high risk, like young drivers and used tacho graphs, big brother maybe, but that way reckless driving could be reduced dramatically and save many lives.

so the 'drive' (no pun) imo is already there to be exploited by the makers.

Arfur

[digitalwitness]

Although I do believe that SSD will find more uses within the security industry in the next 3 to 5 years, I do not believe they will be the main choice of storage media. In that 3-5 years our demands for greater storage will increase with the increase in demand for the likes of HD IP CCTV. Driving forces within the phone industry are completely different, where the phone industry is more about "the most GBs I can fit in my pocket", CCTV applications in general do not have such considerations.

HDDs do have limitations due to their mechanical elements, such as reliability, access times, etc. but solutions to these are already well developed, such as mirroring, ftp, etc. so where the HDD failure is not avoided the consequences (loss of data) is. Where I see a SSD possibly having its main use is for on board back up, keeping a copy of the lastest information in the event of a HDD failure, some DVRs can already mirror to a memory stick for example. While a HDD failing is an inconvenience it no longer has to be a critical failure with loss of data.

[arfur mo]

just looked at the vote 2 self fit v 4 ready fit.

what have we some 500 + trade pro's and all the non trade, so what conclusion is to be drawn for such a low count?

uncommitted or a given buy in the box?

Arfur

[Cubit]

just looked at the vote 2 self fit v 4 ready fit.

what have we some 500 + trade pro's and all the non trade, so what conclusion is to be drawn for such a low count?

uncommitted or a given buy in the box?

Arfur

Perhaps no conclusion.

Personally, i didn't see the poll originally.

Also, membership numbers don't equal those viewing/participating.

[digitalwitness]

just looked at the vote 2 self fit v 4 ready fit.

what have we some 500 + trade pro's and all the non trade, so what conclusion is to be drawn for such a low count?

uncommitted or a given buy in the box?

Arfur

Good point, I guess the original poll is more of a situational question rather than a preference. I would imagine that most installers would prefer the convenience and warranty of having the manufacturer install the HDD but are not willing to pay excess amounts for the privilege so the answer may be influenced by particular suppliers. A supplier is going to charge for the handling and insertion of the HDD and with the pricing widely available on HDD it would nearly always be cheaper to supply and fit yourself so it maybe a question of what is reasonable for a supplier to charge.

But I would expect that it is much more convenient to replace a faulty drive on site rather than remove the DVR, send it back, possible loan unit, etc. if a supplier installs the HDD it is likely that opening the case and installing one yourself would void the warranty (if still current ofcourse), so how would a supplier offer the best of both worlds? The convenience of a pre-installed HDD but the flexibility to repair on site while protecting the interests of all parties? Approved Installers?

[Cubit]

Good point, I guess the original poll is more of a situational question rather than a preference. I would imagine that most installers would prefer the convenience and warranty of having the manufacturer install the HDD but are not willing to pay excess amounts for the privilege so the answer may be influenced by particular suppliers. A supplier is going to charge for the handling and insertion of the HDD and with the pricing widely available on HDD it would nearly always be cheaper to supply and fit yourself so it maybe a question of what is reasonable for a supplier to charge.

But I would expect that it is much more convenient to replace a faulty drive on site rather than remove the DVR, send it back, possible loan unit, etc. if a supplier installs the HDD it is likely that opening the case and installing one yourself would void the warranty (if still current ofcourse), so how would a supplier offer the best of both worlds? The convenience of a pre-installed HDD but the flexibility to repair on site while protecting the interests of all parties? Approved Installers?

Approved Installer?

In reality, a pointless bureaucratic exercise. Still doesn't stop someone 'toasting' the unit, approved or not.

[SystemQ]

Although I do believe that SSD will find more uses within the security industry in the next 3 to 5 years, I do not believe they will be the main choice of storage media. In that 3-5 years our demands for greater storage will increase with the increase in demand for the likes of HD IP CCTV. Driving forces within the phone industry are completely different, where the phone industry is more about "the most GBs I can fit in my pocket", CCTV applications in general do not have such considerations.

HDDs do have limitations due to their mechanical elements, such as reliability, access times, etc. but solutions to these are already well developed, such as mirroring, ftp, etc. so where the HDD failure is not avoided the consequences (loss of data) is. Where I see a SSD possibly having its main use is for on board back up, keeping a copy of the lastest information in the event of a HDD failure, some DVRs can already mirror to a memory stick for example. While a HDD failing is an inconvenience it no longer has to be a critical failure with loss of data.

Advantages – small size, instant data retrieval, no noise, no heat (by comparison), more reliable, “greener” solution. They will become the industry standard the only question is what year. Don't get me wrong the technology is not there now but it will be.

Look at camcorders. The evolution was TAPE > DISC > HD > Flash. Flash memory types now being the biggest seller.

[digitalwitness]

Approved Installer?

In reality, a pointless bureaucratic exercise. Still doesn't stop someone 'toasting' the unit, approved or not.

Yes probably, its a BTW question as to how the best of both worlds could be achieved. Removable HDDs but they bring their own issues imo.

Advantages – small size, instant data retrieval, no noise, no heat (by comparison), more reliable, “greener” solution. They will become the industry standard the only question is what year. Don't get me wrong the technology is not there now but it will be.

Look at camcorders. The evolution was TAPE > DISC > HD > Flash. Flash memory types now being the biggest seller.

I don't disagree with you with regards to the consumer market and within CCTV to a degree just not within the time frame mentioned. Despite the advances in compression technologies, the average size HDD installed in a DVR now is greater than a few years ago, with HD IP the demand for large storage will only increase. Bang for buck HDDs will offer a more cost effective solution for a long time yet and Flash memory has many obstacles to over come before its suitable for CCTV but not many to be suitable for the consumer market, for example the read/write cycles of a HDD are approx. 10 times that of flash memory before wear out, not really an issue for the consumer market but a significant drawback for something that read/writes 24/7. This applies to SD Cards at least (while we were talking about camcorders), I am not sure about SSD but this is only an example.

Flash memory has been around for a long time now but is only recently becoming the media of choice for Camcorders, it was held back due to sizes available and less efficient compression technologies, AFAIK most if not all flash memory camcorders use H.264 compression, the application of this compression in a camcorder sized device was limited by the processing power available to such devices and many professional video photographers still use DV Tape or HDD most as they favor the compressions used and lower requirements on the editing side.

Over time ofcourse the limitations and cost difference will be addressed but HDD technology will also advance, using the Camcorder example, there are many factors that will slow down the implementation of the technology but time will tell I guess.

[SystemQ]

Yes probably, its a BTW question as to how the best of both worlds could be achieved. Removable HDDs but they bring their own issues imo.

I don't disagree with you with regards to the consumer market and within CCTV to a degree just not within the time frame mentioned. Despite the advances in compression technologies, the average size HDD installed in a DVR now is greater than a few years ago, with HD IP the demand for large storage will only increase. Bang for buck HDDs will offer a more cost effective solution for a long time yet and Flash memory has many obstacles to over come before its suitable for CCTV but not many to be suitable for the consumer market, for example the read/write cycles of a HDD are approx. 10 times that of flash memory before wear out, not really an issue for the consumer market but a significant drawback for something that read/writes 24/7. This applies to SD Cards at least (while we were talking about camcorders), I am not sure about SSD but this is only an example.

Flash memory has been around for a long time now but is only recently becoming the media of choice for Camcorders, it was held back due to sizes available and less efficient compression technologies, AFAIK most if not all flash memory camcorders use H.264 compression, the application of this compression in a camcorder sized device was limited by the processing power available to such devices and many professional video photographers still use DV Tape or HDD most as they favor the compressions used and lower requirements on the editing side.

Over time ofcourse the limitations and cost difference will be addressed but HDD technology will also advance, using the Camcorder example, there are many factors that will slow down the implementation of the technology but time will tell I guess.

In less than 5 years your DVRS will have flash memory!

Going back to Jaime's original point of view, I just asked one of my Tech guys how long it takes them to do a full diagnostic test on a 1TB drive if its returned to us as potentially faulty and it takes a whopping 4hrs!

So from the installers side I can see why it is very, very difficult to supply, manage and accurately identify HD faults.

Paul.

[hpotter]

So from the installers side I can see why it is very, very difficult to supply, manage and accurately identify HD faults.

Yep, who wants to mess about, got enough to get on with, without proving manufacturers kit or our bolt on, + ensuing paperwork/phone calls/etc.

swap it out & send it all back imo