Alarm

[Iceman244]

Hello everyone,

I am a union representative who is currently representing a member who is a manager at a large retail store.

The manager is accused of not alarming the store correctly when she locked up the store and went home and could lose her job.

The manager has locked the store for a number of years and did not do anything different on the night in question.

I am not any kind of technical expert and therefore all I can tell you is that it is a Chubb fob system and apparently you set the alarm leave the store and then press a button outside which makes a noise saying the alarm is set as per normal.

My member would never deliberately go home knowing the alarm would not set and had no way of knowing it did not set.

The alarm monitoring company does not call the key holder in circumstances such as this and the store is not fitted with an internal sounder even though apparently the security company said one was needed.

So my questions are as follows:

1.

If the member genuinely thought she had set the alarm is there anyway she would have known it was not set correctly.

2.

Is there a reason beyond the members control that would have caused the alarm not to set correctly or show as unset.

Any advice from the technical experts would be much appreciated so I can save a persons job.

Thank you in advance.

[james.wilson]

Without more detail and or a site visit this is just a loose opinion but

1. If the member genuinely thought she had set the alarm is there anyway she would have known it was not set correctly.

Ignorance is no defence. If she was setting the alarm shw should of known the procedure etc. There are additional steps that can be put in place ie late close monitoring etc but features do add to overall cost. The usual way to know if the system has armed etc is to ensure the tone stops when pressing the push set button outside. IF this wasnt audible there is no way to know. IF it isnt audible then IMHO the system has an issue and this should be rectified. However working for an alarm company myself its very regular that you meet customers that really dont care if its set or not. We often do retraining on systems, some poeple listen and care, some dont.

2.Is there a reason beyond the members control that would have caused the alarm not to set correctly or show as unset

There are plenty of reasons. Not reset correctly, not armed correctly, doors left insecure etc etc. The way to tell is to listen for the tone on exit, check that it changes as you leave and that it stops and or you get a confirm of set tone once the push button is pressed.

IF the sounder isnt audible at all outside the door then you may have apoint. If it is then probably not.

ALso please dont double post. It often causes people not to respond.

[Oxford]

On Chubb systems it is pretty easy to leave a premises without setting the alarm and knowing nothing about it..

They have 2 types of set switch (if it is a Chubb system and not an Initial takeover).

One has an internal beeper and one has an internal light that flashes.

If you can't hear the internal sounder or there isn't one, you have to rely on the beeper or the setting light on the set switch outside, the beeper is VERY quiet and you can hardly see the light!!

Coupled with the fact that the switches Chubb use aren't the best quality and are VERY VERY prone to failing, they are not like a normal push button switch but have a setup with a reed switch and magnet.

I have known these switches to fail on regular basis.

Quite often the engineers won't even wire up the beeper or the light on the set switch, leaving the client to rely on hearing the internal sounder and if there wasn't one of them fitted.....well!

Also, imagine during the setting sequence, you swipe the key fob over the keypad, the keypad starts the setting sequence and starts beeping (quietly), you leave the building, lock the door but something in the premises moves or a door opens during the setting  time, the client then presses the set switch outside with an open circuit inside, the alarm will not set and if you have no audible confirmation of the setting sequence, then, how can the client be at fault?

Also, if the premises is on a main road with a lot of traffic you really have to struggle to hear the beeper from the set switch and if it is really sunny you will struggle to see the light on the set switch.

My theory would be a set fail, this occurs when the client presses the set switch outside at the same time as something in the premises moves (open circuit) and causes the alarm not to set, but if the client regularly sets the system, they will be on auto pilot and not aware of a set fail as they will swipe their keyfob, lock the door, press the button and then leave the site.

But any engineer will be able to read the historic log on the system and tell the client exactly what happened, simples.

[norman]

Also, just to add do they have documentation ouutlining any training in the operation of the security system? You could request a report from Chubb outlining any faults/audibility issues, is it on a main road outside? I would also ask for a copy of the system logs.

[Iceman244]

Without more detail and or a site visit this is just a loose opinion but

Ignorance is no defence. If she was setting the alarm shw should of known the procedure etc. There are additional steps that can be put in place ie late close monitoring etc but features do add to overall cost. The usual way to know if the system has armed etc is to ensure the tone stops when pressing the push set button outside. IF this wasnt audible there is no way to know. IF it isnt audible then IMHO the system has an issue and this should be rectified. However working for an alarm company myself its very regular that you meet customers that really dont care if its set or not. We often do retraining on systems, some poeple listen and care, some dont.

There are plenty of reasons. Not reset correctly, not armed correctly, doors left insecure etc etc. The way to tell is to listen for the tone on exit, check that it changes as you leave and that it stops and or you get a confirm of set tone once the push button is pressed.

IF the sounder isnt audible at all outside the door then you may have apoint. If it is then probably not.

ALso please dont double post. It often causes people not to respond.

Sorry about the double posting this is first time I have used a forum.

The member does care very much unlike some staff hence why I am so keen to help her.

There were 3 people locking up that night and they pressed the button outside as normal.

All 3 people said as far as they were concerened the alarm was set.

Apparently there is not an internal sounder so it is when the tone/beep stops after pressing the button outside.

[jb-eye]

I am not any kind of technical expert and therefore all I can tell you is that it is a Chubb fob system and apparently you set the alarm leave the store and then press a button outside which makes a noise saying the alarm is set as per normal.

My member would never deliberately go home knowing the alarm would not set and had no way of knowing it did not set.

If thats what happened then the alarm was armed correctly IMO. Although i rather suspect she means

press a button outside which makes the noise stop saying the alarm is set.

[Iceman244]

Thanks JB

Yes she does mean the button outside that makes the noise stop therefore assuming alarm is set.

As I say I am no technical expert.

[hpotter]

Have to agree with norm, get a copy of the system log, and ask for print out from ARC too.

[james.wilson]

Id also suggest she didnt eitrher press it for long enough or pressed it before the door was secure.

Logs will show. Does it show she started to set the system but didnt complete the set, or she didnt set the system

[Iceman244]

I am only her union rep and dont work for the company so I do not know what logs show etc.

What is ARC by the way?

So all these logs should be able to be supplied then ?

Also I presume all alarm companies would supply training but it is a case of the stores not wanting to pay for it ?

Also as a lay person if I get these logs will they be self explanitory?

Many thanks