Bsia Recommend Insurance Approval Before Any

[hpotter]

wonder how many of our customers stay with the same insurer year after year & of those that change are asked what spec of their existing intruder system?

[james.wilson]

a few. At least then the spec will be passed to the insurer for approval etc.

Ive always wondered why the insurers dont insist on G4 comms. They used to when they specified redcare etc.

[arfur mo]

I don't see how a system rated risk that allows a digi for signaling us any more secure than a GSM signalled system.

As with digi you would not spec for hi risk, the gulf between gsm only and Redcare/gsm is narrowed And so where the higher red car cost option is less needed.

Tbh it's total BS IMHO quoting door bells and dog training devices affecting gsm as just a laughable objection (their is no return path signals).

as for jamming, like any other system it requires a level of intruder competence that would be so attracted, and the risk if jamming a local higher security kit would also be present,

all that assuming the intruder knows it's gsm, and gsm only,. landline digi can still be connected in parallel Tx format, it comes built in with the panel on both wisdom and agility, so jamming gsm is not guaranteed to kill signalling, just like chopping the cables outside a building is not guaranteed to kill red care - but can.

Arfur

[Smoke Screen]

I think these comments taken from CSL's gradeshift brochure are quite telling:

“Allianz have reviewed recent developments in Intruder Alarm Dual Path signalling & are pleased to confirm that CSL

DualCom GPRS G3 with Priority Polling can be specified for medium risks. CSL DualCom GPRS G4 should be specified

for higher risks. Both GPRS G3 & G4 operate within CSL's Gemini Managed Network incorporating Gemini Callback."

ANDREW MILLER MANAGER RISK CONTROL – ALLIANZ COMMERCIAL

“Following a review of available systems AXA are pleased to confirm that DualCom GPRS G3 with Priority Polling is

acceptable for small/medium risks and DualCom GPRS G4 is acceptable for higher risks. DualCom Plus can also

continue to be specified for medium/high risks.”

DOUGLAS BARNETT HEAD OF CUSTOMER RISK MANAGEMENT – AXA INSURANCE

"RSA's preferred product from the current CSL signalling range is the GPRS G4. This is considered to be an acceptable

alarm signalling system for the vast majority of UK theft risks. CSL's GPRS G3 product will be acceptable for those risks

that we class as low to moderate."

DONNA HAMER PORTFOLIO TECHNICAL MANAGER – ROYAL & SUN ALLIANCE

To me, reading between the lines, it would appear that G4 is their stance really and G3 as a minimum in most cases.

I think the overall tone of the original post is don't chance it if you are unsure whether the customer will contact their insurers. At the very least write to them and explain your concerns if they are insistent on a lower grade of signalling/system and your RA indicates a higher level system is required.

The brochure is available here: http://www.csldual.com/products/DualComGPRS/resources/DualCom%20GradeShift%C2%AE%20Range%20Elements%20-%20CSL003V2.pdf

edited for a typo

[james.wilson]

I don't see how a system rated risk that allows a digi for signaling us any more secure than a GSM signalled system.

As with digi you would not spec for hi risk, the gulf between gsm only and Redcare/gsm is narrowed And so where the higher red car cost option is less needed.

Tbh it's total BS IMHO quoting door bells and dog training devices affecting gsm as just a laughable objection (their is no return path signals).

as for jamming, like any other system it requires a level of intruder competence that would be so attracted, and the risk if jamming a local higher security kit would also be present,

all that assuming the intruder knows it's gsm, and gsm only,. landline digi can still be connected in parallel Tx format, it comes built in with the panel on both wisdom and agility, so jamming gsm is not guaranteed to kill signalling, just like chopping the cables outside a building is not guaranteed to kill red care - but can.

Arfur

you lost me?

[arfur mo]

you lost me?

we are talking about change of signalling method and user notifying insurrance co, i'd say that it is given must be done without fail, just as any upgrade even to a better or more sophisticated panel/system should be. Insurance Companies can limbo under a curb stone to find a clause not to pay, just make sure it don't land in your lap, have it in paperwork they must inform tem.

signal alterations don't always means swaping RedCare/GSM out to a dualcom or a didgi, where a digi existed then a GSM Tx could imho offer better security than before (gsm signal level accepted).

yes, it could be jammed, just as didgi line can be cut or go out of service ,or a 'clean' line has ADSL attached. there are sites that need a bit more than a traditional digi offers, but needs less than the level either RedCAre or DUal com offer, in days of belt tightenning perhaps should not be overlooked.

So what i'm saying is, lower tech as in original digi security has been improved with arival of GSM which for all intents is the same kit using a different harder to disable medium, and possibly fill's the gap.

if you need the next 'notch', then also have landline connected, sort of 1/2 way house solution instead of a full dual com to exsplain what i'm getting at,not ta i ay downgrade a dualcom to just GSM and keep stum!

Arfur

[james.wilson]

signal alterations don't always means swaping RedCare/GSM out to a dualcom or a didgi, where a digi existed then a GSM Tx could imho offer better security than before (gsm signal level accepted).

Its irrelevnt arf as ANY changes need to be notified. You may call it an upgrade, others may not.

in most repsects a redcare secure G2 is an upgrade from redcare clssic. But in some important ones its a huge downgrade

[arfur mo]

Its irrelevnt arf as ANY changes need to be notified. You? may call it an upgrade, others! may not.

James,

tbh if i did no know you better i woul find that just insulting, as would anyone in this game of any serious ammount of time!

did you actually read THE WHOLE of the 1st sentence in my last post? the bit were i clearly stated -:

we are talking about change of signalling method and user notifying insurrance co, i'd say that it is given must be done without fail, just as any upgrade even to a better or more sophisticated panel/system should be. Insurance Companies can limbo under a curb stone to find a clause not to pay, just make sure it don't land in your lap, have it in paperwork they must inform tem

to point out, it's been that way ever since i can remmember in this trade, it was the installation/service engineers duty when putting detectors on test or for temp disconnections small work alterations etc, to get the keyholder to sign that advice direct on the call sheet.

Arfur

[james.wilson]

Arf, dont take it personally it was an observation. I was using you in this case to highlight the point to others. Some do indeed think that an upgrade neednt be notified as its better than what was coming out. But as i said it may not be an upgrade in all situations.

Id also suggest that a land line is more reliable than a gprs link.

[arfur mo]

Arf, dont take it personally it was an observation. I was using you in this case to highlight the point to others. Some do indeed think that an upgrade neednt be notified as its better than what was coming out. But as i said it may not be an upgrade in all situations.

Id also suggest that a land line is more reliable than a gprs link.

Using the words perhaps some instead of 'you' iso looking like you thought i do, mmediately followed by 'others' looked like a real 'pop', let's say if you were a cat - you would now be down to the 8 lives left.

Anyway, I don't take the risk, as I think very chancy not to advise insurrers of any alteration no matter if it's better. For the sakes of a letter you butt is covered.

the client may now be more wealthy, you do more protection to match, but they don't upgrade Insurrance. Not 'your' fault but I like to provide a top service.

A lot of people don't realise with many contents policies if they under insure, let's say by 30%, unfortunately make a claim and loss asjusters assess the total contents value is higher than you stated, you only get your claim value less 30% or the percentage under insurered by.

You can target a landline with a hammer, pair of pruning sheers, or nail etc, takes a bit more 'nounce' and kit to kill a gsm connection and be sure you have, and a bit harder to leave the receiver off the hook to . Add in all the fun with service providers line compression, do you want to think it through more?

I've been using Tesco PAYG sims, client can latch them to their bank account. Credit drops bellow £10 it auto tops up.

I stick the chip into an open phone, switch off all call diverts and VM Free text), email info to client ahead so they get it registered..

make enough test calls to use up the .94p credit, if it stops answering I know it's not been registered. Later I can ring in to see if it's answering Si still connected and gas credit all without disturbing anyone.

tesc Runs on back if O2, all good so fare, ideal for gsm operating gates.

Arfur