New Trouble

[frosasantos]

Ok, i dont mean to bother a lot but i cant help myself! but now it is simple!

i have two smoke detectors (FD 3060 - http://www.unipos-bg.com/index.php?l=25&id=252 ), they're connected with 4 wires, (+) to the PCB (+), (-) connected to the "Smoke" manual reset output, and 2 wires for the zone: it has 3 "states" inside it (NO, C, NC). i used NC to connect to the zone and C to connect to GND(-).

it works but when it gets tripped because of smoke it flases once, the PCB starts the alarm but the LED light goes out (shuts down) after like 2 secs, shouldnt it be always on when there's trouble and i would have to reset it manually? (on the PCB the smoke output is triggered for 240 secs, same as burglary, etc)

the other detector has problems but i believe its the hardware, not the wiring cause i changed each other and the good one kept setting off the alarm and the bad one didnt, the bad one just lights up the leds forever and only shuts them down when i press the manually reset button, they (the leds) dont go away nor the alarm is tripped.

I believe its hardware (on the second detector), but kinda of wondered if i'm doing something wrong (like not choosing the NO type on the first detector). the manual doent state anything.

many thanks again for your help guys and happy new year.

Fred

[james.wilson]

if its wired into an intruder panel then C and NC is correct.

It seems like your sensor is latching and not auto resetting.

Does it have an options?

[Guest Oxo]

What are they connected to?

[frosasantos]

What are they connected to?

They are connected to an intruder pannel.

they are zone 7 and zone 10. both zones are defined as "Fire". black wire connected to (-)(smoke output on the PCB), red wire connected to (+), C and NC connected to zone 7 (or zone 10) and to (-). Also there's an option (default option) from the manual to set the polarity of the smoke output to (+) so The output is normally tripped and is disconnected during alarms. i believe it should "reconnect/tripp" after the 240 secs or when i press the reset button but the light goes off imediatly after going on, although it still sets off the alarm (in one smoke detector). i believe the 2nd detector really has an hardware issue cause it just lights up and doenst go out (nor the led lighs goes out nor the alarm sets off). maybe the default for the detector is just to flash the led once but i expected it to light up and i would have either to wait the 240 secs or to manually reset it. also i didnt put any eol resistors on them cause frankly i dont know how! (nor i know if they have it already (from factory).

many thanks again

[Guest Oxo]

What panel?

Why are zones connected to a hard neg?

Should they have, does the panel require EOL?

You post is more confusing than helpful.

What is the panel?

Take a step back and describe everything as requested.

[frosasantos]

The panel is a PIMA hunter pro 832. i'm not saying it is well connected, but the installer did it this way that i describe:

the panel doesnt require EOL, the PIR sensors have EOL but the panel doesnt require them, they were "put there" by the installer. i understand the Panel doesnt require them because there's and option to define (+) when a sensor has an EOL. in this case that option is not set to (+) so i belive they(the smoke detectors) dont have but the PIR do cause the i've seen them and the option is set to (+).

here's the pictire on how he left it:

4 wires are pluged into the smoke detector. 2 wires connect on the PCB like this: Red direcly to the one of the (+) and black one (-) to the "smoke output" of the panel. i believe you already seen the panel last time you helped me, but here is the drawing for it:

then the other 2 wires (yellow and green), the yellow connects from NC to to zone 7 and the green from C to a negative on the board . shouldn't a zone be connected to a neg? is this wiring wrong? cause out of the smoke detector in the diagram i only see 3 "wires", one to the +, other to the - and the last one to the Zone.

hope i was more helpfull this time, the rest is has i explained before.

tx

i forgot to draw the red one that connects to the (+) on the left of "key"

[Guest Oxo]

Hi there, now I rememebr you and this panel

According to the drawing you have there and i`ve just pulled a manual down again myself, you need a resistor to make that configuration work.

You are correct in thinking it will only need a 3 wire connection,

One being Positive, Two being a negative also linked to C, 3 being the return leg to the single zone ( 7 in your diagram).

Forget trying to bring another negative into the equation, just loop from the -ve in the detector to "C".

In your picture you can just see the white link next to the black wire (-ve) which would have been connected to "C", someones obviously got a bit confused in there.

Use Fig 10 in Paragraph 3.1.3.1 that should solve the problem. Set the zone as EOL, they can be done individually.

Otherwise use double pole as shown in 3.1.2 (page 18)

As you say using 5.6.2 will allow the reset to be timed or a manual reset on the # key.

Looks like your getting there, nice one.

I`ve saved the manual this time so if your stuck again, you know where we are.

Keep up the good work!

[frosasantos]

Hey Oxo, thanks for the reply, this is "gold"! altough it raises more questions on my side! sorry (to you and everyone reading my posts!)if i look stupid sometimes but i need to get better! I am still sometimes struggling with the principles os DC current. i hope this post isnt too confusing, if it is i'll restructure it!

I though we needed a current flow. i know based on the manual the (-) on the smoke output is normally tripped and it is disconnected when an alarm occurs. it's so cause its polarity is set to (+) on the outputs configuration (by default on this output).

so if its disconnected on alarms i have to "reset" it or wait 240 secs for it to be tripped again, i hope this is correct! what i dont get(one of the gazillion things!) is if it gets disconnected on alarms, the flow of the current is "interrupted" (i "loose" the negative), how the hell are the leds gonna stay lid up (like i see on youtube and wanted them too!)!?

Now for the wires part! you present so many options that i really dont know "which one" to choose!

One being Positive, Two being a negative also linked to C, 3 being the return leg to the single zone ( 7 in your diagram).

Forget trying to bring another negative into the equation, just loop from the -ve in the detector to "C".

In your picture you can just see the white link next to the black wire (-ve) which would have been connected to "C", someones obviously got a bit confused in there.

No wonder i got confused too! so is the installation wrong, or i just need a resistor in there?

you say the white link is there (it wasnt messed around and i believe it still links), so isnt it still linking the -Ve(#2 on the base) to "C"? or i need to loop it myself? i mean, should i just get rid of the green wire, loop "c" to -, or the white link is already doing that?

Use Fig 10 in Paragraph 3.1.3.1 that should solve the problem. Set the zone as EOL, they can be done individually.

Ok, i get a resistor and "short"/"shunt" the "C" and the "NC" (hope this question isnt realllllllly dumb!)?

Otherwise use double pole as shown in 3.1.2 (page 18)

now this diagram is really "confusing"!

i get the "zone" and the "-" (i thought thats what it is doing right now, one to the (-) and one to the "zone"). i dont know what the tamper switch refers to on this detector.

basically, what i am saying is What do i do now! i understand the guy that plugged this messed a bit, as it is, what should i do!? many thanks to you all!

Looks like your getting there, nice one.

meh, my head hurts! i wish i could understand a little more!

I`ve saved the manual this time so if your stuck again, you know where we are.

Keep up the good work!

thanks A LOT for the help and Please keep the manual!!!

i'm sorry that my english isnt better, but this technical terms are "hurting" me!

i'm pasting here a reply i got from the smoke detectors manufacturers, bugged me when they reffer to the NO relay.

Hi Frederico,

I will explain you how our 30X0 series detectors work:

They should be powered on the "+" connector (connectors 4 or 5 on the

3000 base) and on the "-" connector ( connector 2 on the 3000 base).

When they are powered with voltage (12-30)V they start to work.

In duty mode the detectors consumption is about 300 uA (microAmps),

while in alarm mode they consume about 20mA (miliAmps).

When the detector is activated we have signal (GND -> current sink) on

the Remote Indicator output (connector 1 on the 3000 base).

In your case, when we use relay base - 3000R, the relay is activated

from Remote Indicator output of the detector and the relay is active (C

is short to NO).

The only way to reset the detector from alarm mode to duty mode is to

switch OFF the power of the detector and then switch it ON again.

I attach you the connection scheme - "30X0_connection.JPG".

Above I have described you the 30X0 basic principles. If you have more

concrete questions you can ask me.

In order to help you how to connect our detectors to your system I need

more detail information about your system - brand of your system etc.

[Guest Oxo]

Remember I am doing this with the manual not with a system.

Also some language is getting crossed over but here goes

5.9.4 use P <+=Pos, that is a switched negative, which should engage the LED.

The "white" link, my error it looks like it is there already, so use a resistor in series with the NC wire back to zone 7. That being the 3rd wire.

Forget the last diagram you show, as it is not EOL.

It seems you have the base wired as the manufacturers description, again this seems to be a translation

Try it this way, the worst that can happen is a fuse blowing.

Excuse the late reply, just found a large lump of cheese and pickled onions and am busy stuffing face.

[norman]

anything else down the back of the fridge?