Ip Alarm Signalling

[jimcarter]

In relation to the ARC and costs. It is our intention to make a saving by moving to IP while increaseing revenue. We have a number of IP receivers in our office and they are all pretty effective and we therefore thought the high cost was due to MANAGED service. It transpires its actualy down to ARC. The purchare price of the transmission Eqipment and the Data card in the qty we buy also is prohibative.

Managed Service...now were getting to the interesting bit. I agree there are some who claim to be a "managed" service but in effect all they appear to be doing is passing the alarms through to the ARC. I dont think this can be classed as a managed service. If you are paying a premium for this, then I would be pretty miffed too.

You are dead right, the idea is to gain more revenue, and this should not just be from the ARC's perspective.

Am I right in thinking that you are buying the SIM too (from your comment)? Not good either. I don't think you have been talking to the right people

[jimcarter]

Hi Jim,

been brilliant inpout from you imho.

being a small guy, i'm looking more from the domestic and small comercail market client POV viability, as any other are i guess in here.

ones who as a rule we don't get to deal with the shopping centres and and banks etc, the bigger guys will have the comms and stratagies all sorted.

if this is going to make headway in the mass domestic market, i need to raise some of the points you make, just to get a deeper understanding of the thinking, you mihght get to see from the 'tools' side some of the thing we have to combat (so info and benifit both ways i hope).

you say earlier, no need for a UPS, can i challengre that? as no power = no router = no signals, thats no matter the size of site, don't thinkthe idea was a to damaging statement, as most engineers would not fit a system without some sort of mains backup.

many homes will have e BT WiFi only home hub, so no way is that suitable for IP alarms, unles a WiFi adapter comes out, and that will likely be costly as a generic add on if ever made.

OK, client agree's not a big complecated job or expense, if we all want IP signalling way to go, cheaper than other options long term (ARC cost aside).

so we go buy buy a shiny new belkin/D-Link whatever router. all these have a 4 port hub built in, very handy for our Cat5e cable to the panel. Also thy have screw on antenna/'s. so whats the issue with pushing these antenna's outside a metal or decent wall mounted plastic box (as i have done to extend DECt phone systems) for WiFi ?

Arfur

OK, see where you are coming from...none what-so-ever if the client is happy with this. All I'd say is that in practice most sites want to continue to have access to their routers etc, especially if they need to re-boot them...which yes, does happen from time to time.

Just for info, whilst a lot of our clients may be "Corporate Retail" the vast majority of their sites act like SMEs. Many are franchised premises, small corner shops and the like. They have NetGear or Lanstream Routers etc connected either to the net or a private network. So they are very close, if not identical to the type of premises that you are protecting. Indeed the big banking type sites etc are in the minority.

The Secuirty Manager for these coporates is reponsible, in many respects as you are, for the installation and signalling which is normally guided by the standards, despite there sometimes being a self insure element. If the proprietor or shop manager has a problem, then the Security Manager gets the irate call.

I guess what I'm tryig to say is that as a company providing IP based systems, we're actually more in tune with the SME market and even domestic, and their associated problems than many would think.

Glas you like the posts BTW!

Jim

[arfur mo]

Thanks Jim,

Been fascinating indirection an area I'd otherwise know little about or have the chance to.

Thinksilks of my anti IP comes from VOIP phone systems, they may save money but voice quality IMHO most times is very poor

Regs

Alan

[jimcarter]

Thanks Jim,

Been fascinating indirection an area I'd otherwise know little about or have the chance to.

Thinksilks of my anti IP comes from VOIP phone systems, they may save money but voice quality IMHO most times is very poor

Regs

Alan

No probs, my pleasure.

[mma]

I've only installed a couple of ip monitored systems. Only really had a problem with 1 site were bt keep messing on with their bb late at night as they do. We got blamed at 1st but the the customer noticed his internet and email were also down.

I do think it is a good idea but I do agree with some of the concerns. Ie loss of power comms go down or faulty router comms go down. Also think comms will be affected at peek times. I know my bb is as slow as dial up sometimes and have lost connection altogether a couple of times. WiFi only routers will be an issue soon I think and as mobile internet gets faster and faster we may see some people not bother with bb.

Having said even with these faults I would still consider using ip on other sites. Found it easy to set up. Didn't have to configure anything on the router so no worries there. I used emizon. Only really quote for it when up against a local rival that are pushing it more and more.

[jimcarter]

1. Ie loss of power comms go down or faulty router comms go down.

2. Also think comms will be affected at peek times.

3.I know my bb is as slow as dial up sometimes and have lost connection altogether a couple of times.

4. WiFi only routers will be an issue soon I think and as mobile internet gets faster and faster we may see some people not bother with bb.

Let's try and address a couple of your points, I've numbered them so my brain can cope!

1. - If your provider is doing his job he will be able to advise you that the router has gone off line for whatever reason (by that I'm not saying he can tell you what that reason is). This will probably mean your client will be aware anyway, especially in business as we can't work without it. In practice, it doesn't happen very often (power down that is), but you'll have to take my word for that. Hardware failure of a router is very scarce, I think the same applies here as power down. In both cases, these are things you need to know about anyway, so I'd almost ask, "so what's your problem, you need to know"

2 - By peak times you mean contention. This means that with a number of people trying to accces the net through the same exchange your speed of connection may deteriorate. Good IP based systems use so little bandwidth that contention is not an issue.

3 - Your connection may be slow for a couple of reasons, as I say above, contention is one, but more than likely it is what you are trying to connect to on the net (maybe the website your are visiting is very busy or you are trying to download a large file), but this is a timeout and not a loss of connection. Again, this is unlikely to affect a good IP device.

4 - Routers using a mobile network. At the end of the day it's still a router and the traffic is still IP. So there will no doubt be ports on the back of the router to connect equipment to. Not every device is able to use a Wifi connection to the router and there are sometimes good reasons for this. If we ever get to a time when this is the norm then it will be a case of weighing up the risk of sharing this line of putting in a dedicated circuit.

[jimcarter]

So why does the webway one website say it uses port 50561?

Sorry I see a post any longer than 2 sentences and I ignore it, A problem Ive picked up recently, its something I call Arfur syndrome

Just re- read this and looked at the diagram from the website. Port 50561 is the destination port at the ARC, nothing to do with Port Forwarding. I shuould have picked up on this earlier. It allows (in tight networks) IT to have the ability to "nail down" the outbound connection to specific destination IP addresses and a specific IP port. Makes it nice and secure for them.

In domestics and simple networks, you don't need to worry about this at all. It will just work.

[arfur mo]

sorry Jim, i'm not intending to be rude in any way

Let's try and address a couple of your points, I've numbered them so my brain can cope!

1. - If your provider is doing his job he will be able to advise you that the router has gone off line for whatever reason (by that I'm not saying he can tell you what that reason is). This will probably mean your client will be aware anyway, especially in business as we can't work without it. In practice, it doesn't happen very often (power down that is), but you'll have to take my word for that. Hardware failure of a router is very scarce, I think the same applies here as power down. In both cases, these are things you need to know about anyway, so I'd almost ask, "so what's your problem, you need to know"

as a trade we can't be so 'cavelier' to rely on the ARC to say there is a loss of signal, since securty time in memorial - well almost, we have had to ensure the transmitter be that a '999', digi, ABC, red care works properly in a power cut, and as long as the signal path is there it will transmit.

you are incorrect about power outages being rare, Cuffley, Herts had 22 hour cut 20/12/2010, Wickford (where i live) had several last year lasting upto 8 hours.

if the power to the router is cut yes the ARC will know it has lost signal, but that will be a line fault scenario and so key holder only. Mr Smart Ass intruder klls the power and can now break in knowing only key holder response to a lost signal.

if the panel holds up but batteries start to get exausted, how will it send a low battery alert, the keyholder mught assume a simple power cut.

i appreciate there will most likely, but not always (if IP really want's to compete), be a secondary backup TX system via Red Care or other channel, but 'we' need proper response on the primary signal transmittions for our confidence.

Red Care has had GSM attached why? because Red Care is simply so unreliable, the GSM side can't always be used simply because of lack of GSM network coverage. Dual Com has simular issues because GSM signal strengnth can be so erratic.

while the risk might be 'OK' for G2, but i would not like to be the one to confront a heavy loss client for the sakes of a backup power UPS connected to the router.

please don't take any of the above as any sort of 'crack' at you, i'm just voicing my honest concerns.

Arfur

[Guest Oxo]

So what will survive a total power loss, at the site and maybe at the local exchange?

Their UPS gets battered, GSM/GPRS gets busy as everyone starts using their blackberrys andriods iphones?

Actually a serious question I know of a few CIT (Cash In Transit) sites i`ve worked on/in that could come unstuck.

If we are to banter then keep it serious, be constructive.You say RED/Gsm is unreliable, at this moment in time I believe it is still the best. Always has been. Never seen it to be unreliable and thats saying a lot as I have fitted, well I have lost count.

Early paknet was hyped, had issues. IP probs fitted first one in our area, actually not too bad with the GPRS backup. Emizon was the product.

List can go on.

Arf if you have a really serious point of contention, then tell us. If it will help improve things tell us,Straight.

No backwards stuff, forward thinking. And if your right i`ll agree.

If wrong i`ll tell you.

[Cubit]

Worth asking.

Just how many here have a carp network?

Those that may have had one, what did they do about it?