Guest Oxo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Nah m8ty, you ever at Canary Wharf I`ll meet you and take you to a chines that DOES NOT use it what so ever. The food is so so much better. Its actually off the main area, 5 min walk away. so not yuppie like the others in Canary Wharf but I must admit Jamie Olivers Italian in the Wharf is well worth a visit. By now you know I love my food, ps there was some leftovers last night, added more rice and some chilli for a Lamb Biryani. ( chilli is my own taste obviously on the biryani).
Guest Oxo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 ROFL Good question. Its seriously not fun trying to get permissions, and the security think they are army :S Anyway back on sublect pls? Data lines and power and using the RKP to supply a PIR.
arfur mo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Yeah but he is incorrect. Many manufacturers make an allowance for this method of fittment. And most of useing that type of panel for years also utilising this method have had no problems. As above good advice is to double up the 0V rail and if possible the +ve too, if only able to do one double the 0V rail up. To add every NODE/RIO/LIM/EXPANDER runs off the data rail and then runs the components. Generally without another PSU. Whats the difference? first off, i'm not challenging you or anyone, i instal from the point of view it's me that goes out in the small hours, i'm not over keen on that so i 'build out' all the problems i can - rare or otherwise and it is simply a practice i don'r feel comfortable with. i'm not playing 'clever' just i am seeing the advice as a little contradicting itself, you recommend wise to double up the keypad feed 12 volts all well and good, which also indicates to me possible voltage drop issues. if so, why then advise to connect other kit which would conteract the cables being doubled by pulling more current? surely better to run more cores and feed power from panel aux, or if need be additional psu/s? to support my case, we get many posts in here from the DIY side having problems after decorating or building works, adding or removing a detector etc., either they dislodged a cable or create short somewhere popping a fuse. not a big deal to us, but it is to anyone not experienced, and a risk as that also disables the keypad and makes really big risk for DIY.. They will now need a fuse, but will they be likely to have one to hand? (i think fair to say unlikely unless a spare supplied), but if they were independently supplied, they 'only' pop the detector supply. yes they stll need a new fuse, but they have far less risk of not being able to stop the internal sirens or worse externals if thats also on the same fuse. Gardtec have had a seperate fuse's for rkp's for years, also later panels have dedicated EWD fuse and AUX fuses, which i think is good esign. easy fault finding using the same theory behind having one device per zone. by all means run a zone from the rkp but run more cores to power the detecor from the panel/psu's, tbh i cannt see how hard is that to forward plan?. Arfur I read it as Arf saying no to pir's of the rkp ? not exactely, irecommend just don't power detection off the keypad supply, doing so that means more cores, and that means making a nonsense of using the rkp for the pir/s. Arfur If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Oxo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Well your right again and all the major manufacturers should have you in their R&D. There are 100`s of 1000`s of panels out there with no issue wired like this. Your own words without going back and looks were along the lines of " thats bad practise" Now anwer Jame`s question please. Do you fit expanders and then Pir`s from them?
arfur mo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 arf as oxo says do you run your expanders from the data bus power supply? tbh James i usually have expanders all by the panel, then i fit a wopping great big PSU for all auxilliaries. might be easier to have expanders all over the place initiaially, but you get a problem on a remote zone you now have to hump the steps, meter tools etc up to the expander, get another lid off, if it's jammed packed - whats the point? my way, i open one big box and can meter everything from that point, don't have to wait while kids are using the family bathroom, and so on. if i use remote expanders its usually with a PSU, if not i run a 12 core, double up the 12 volts to expanders, then seperately double even tripple up for power, on occasions i'll rune a 1mm twin flex for aux power. these lines would be split up on a fuse bar at the psu, again anything shorts the fuse blown will lead me quickly to the source. put simply, i'm very service minded having spent untold hours tracing faults for companies, my routines are developed from that time. means if i get do get any issue's i'm better equiped to diagnose and so fix it 1st time. Arfur If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
arfur mo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Well your right again and all the major manufacturers should have you in their R&D. There are 100`s of 1000`s of panels out there with no issue wired like this. Your own words without going back and looks were along the lines of " thats bad practise" Now anwer Jame`s question please. Do you fit expanders and then Pir`s from them? i'm not always right (just ask Mrs Mo), i just don't do what i think is wrong and exsplain why. James question answered prior, i can only type so fast - due to correctin typo's , while many manufactureres may design kit that way, and many systems won't have issues, it is not imho best practice (and why i use Gardtec designed kit ). seriously though, if i were using panels designed like that today. i'd fit fuse blocks to split up the outputs. i've done this in the earlier days of trading when using panels with such designs. cheap enough, and as said earlier can seriously aid fault finding. really hate to see 12 pirs all off one output, stuffed into a terminal block. the engineer not taking a clue from the panel terminal size not to do this, but fit a PSU. just another issue, if you need to remove/move a pir, you can't then kill the power prior. good chance engineer will do this 'live' pop the fuse, causing not a little upset to all . Arfur If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Oxo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 i'm not always right (just ask Mrs Mo), i just don't do what i think is wrong and exsplain why. James question answered prior, i can only type so fast - due to correctin typo's , while many manufactureres may design kit that way, and many systems won't have issues, it is not imho best practice (and why i use Gardtec designed kit ). Your choice, bad practise to have 12 cores everywhere and a big wall full of expanders and other components, and expanders are made to go away from the panel. seriously though, if i were using panels designed like that today. i'd fit fuse blocks to split up the outputs. i've done this in the earlier days of trading when using panels with such designs. They do, your just not bothered to check, cheap enough, and as said earlier can seriously aid fault finding. really hate to see 12 pirs all off one output, stuffed into a terminal block. the engineer not taking a clue from the panel terminal size not to do this, but fit a PSU. Fault finding is fault finding, quid pro. just another issue, if you need to remove/move a pir, you can't then kill the power prior. good chance engineer will do this 'live' pop the fuse, causing not a little upset to all . Why not go to the expander node lim rio and pull the circuit there. Arfur None of your points are valid really.
sixwheeledbeast Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 first off, i'm not challenging you or anyone, i instal from the point of view it's me that goes out in the small hours, i'm not over keen on that so i 'build out' all the problems i can - rare or otherwise and it is simply a practice i don'r feel comfortable with. I also go out in the "small hours", but never to a fault reguarding this i'm not playing 'clever' just i am seeing the advice as a little contradicting itself, you recommend wise to double up the keypad feed 12 volts all well and good, which also indicates to me possible voltage drop issues. if so, why then advise to connect other kit which would conteract the cables being doubled by pulling more current? surely better to run more cores and feed power from panel aux, or if need be additional psu/s? It doesn't "indicate" voltage drop at all, just good working practice with spare network lines. How much voltage drop do you think a DT has in a house? Not 100m runs really! Why, are we even talking about extra PSU's on a house, with 6 DT's and 3 RKP's? to support my case, we get many posts in here from the DIY side having problems after decorating or building works, adding or removing a detector etc., either they dislodged a cable or create short somewhere popping a fuse. not a big deal to us, but it is to anyone not experienced, and a risk as that also disables the keypad and makes really big risk for DIY.. We are not really talking DIY kit here are we. We are trying to help someone install pro kit as a DIY'er. They will now need a fuse, but will they be likely to have one to hand? (i think fair to say unlikely unless a spare supplied), but if they were independently supplied, they 'only' pop the detector supply. yes they stll need a new fuse, but they have far less risk of not being able to stop the internal sirens or worse externals if thats also on the same fuse. Spare fuses come with the kit anyway. It's fairly easy to stop an internal sounder at DIY level isn't it! The externals are very rarely on the same fuse as keypads, panels like this would not provide keypad zones Gardtec have had a seperate fuse's for rkp's for years, also later panels have dedicated EWD fuse and AUX fuses, which i think is good esign. easy fault finding using the same theory behind having one device per zone. by all means run a zone from the rkp but run more cores to power the detecor from the panel/psu's, tbh i cannt see how hard is that to forward plan?. I am sorry but you can't compare one device pair zone to aux voltages, it is not feaseable in an alarm system to have one fuse pair device, plus not exactly hard to find a shorted cable. I was merely trying to advise to put a couple of zones on the keypads to free some zones on the panel. Where the voltage comes from is up to the installer. Personally the I would run the voltage off the keypad (which nearly all agree is an acceptable practice) as I see no valid reason not to.
zurrieq Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 As above really. Yes use the + and - on the Keypad, if you want it is good to double up the power wires going to keypad. E.g Red and White +, Black and Blue -, Yellow T, Green R. This will reduce voltage dropped at a the keypads and sensors. Not keen on sound bomb's, beware of current, probably best sited adj panel. The 4 terminal next to Zone 1 can be used to power devices, excluding bell box, expanders, keypad as they have there own terminals. Do not use the DC+ DC- next to the battery leads, this is unfused and for communicators fitted inside the panel Thank you once again for your valuable advice. I have 2 sound bombs... do you believe they might be a problem?
Guest Oxo Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Depends on the loadings you have. Either do a calculation of approx current draw or meter it as you go along. Adding each extra item seperatley. Easiest is a rough calc.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.