New Installers - Advice

[arfur mo]

i'm not out to down or attack you in any way, i'm looking and investigating for possible future use, or problems, if i were to link my clients alarms to your service. I ave to protect my clients, also myself from liability or lack of due diligence, why i'm asking some searching questions.

Taking my industry hat off if I am walking down the street as Joe public and see a burglary in progress /quote]

the qualification for Police Response in your example is you/JP i.e. human being have actually seen the suspected intrusion in progress,

when I ring the police they don't ask for a urn. If someone sat in an arc can see a burglary in progress, why should they need a urn to dispatch the police?

when a system dials your service, you are not the physical witness so to speak but a paid monitoring company responding to a signal perhaps even from from a home brew set up, or designed as bells only so not having a lot of the anti-false technology thats been implemented over whats many years.

//Arfur now gets out big bucket of sucking eggs to instruction in use of .

with full respects the URN states its purpose within its name, it is like using a zip code for that particular site, reduces transmission errors either by the ARC and/or the Police, and has been verified for accuracy prior to being made live. this is pretty vital.

Withdrawal of Police response is currently by removing the URN, and reduces wasted Police resources. activation to an ordinary ARC it cannot then be forwarded to the Police, even as i understand with audio and or video verification.

I fear at some stage your calls are likely to be ignored due to the source being recognised through caller id as an incoming automated signal, and not confirming to the set out APCO an EN regs. The URN has any activations time/Date stamped Etc recorded against it., local CPO gets copies and acts accordingly,

how will you or the Police to prevent being constantly called by rough systems via your services?

even with all that in place on a registered installer system, the Police have no obligation to attend, can elect to attend other matters, and could use this power even to choose to ignore your companies calls, or might even prosecute you for wasting Police Time, which gets more likely if you have to many really bad systems.

i really would implement some form of filtering, you may have a viable alternative that imho needs some refining, if only to keep the PC Dibble's sweet and your services active.

[Oxo]

Wow.

Anymore insights how we can run this business with Police Responce?

 

Afterall, you must have hundreds of Policed accounts.

[matthew.brough]

We currently only monitor our own accounts so don't have to worry about 3rd party lability. As with a traditional system our contract is to inform the police not for the police to attend which as my end users point out from time to time the appendix g they signs says that. There is no obligation for them to do so and ten questions why they are paying.

This issue has been discussed many times with the police, latest just a couple of months ago and the reality seems there isn't a hunger to address it. As far as getting barred, the acpo policy has a clause for type b calls which if passed with decent information a crime is in progress will get a response.

I was disappointed as an installer when they did bs8418 as the original idea was the police would bar any non urn CCTV systems and even agreed an amnesty of issuing CCTV urns to non 8418 systems. The idea was then no urn no response. The reality was we all got urns and the non approved boys carried on as normal. That makes me feel cheated as I invested a lot of time and money in 8418 approval plus my competitors not meeting the standard at are a commercial advantage over me as they can do it cheaper as they do tv have to meet the standard. The luxury I have us our install business is approved for int/CCTV/access/8418 and we've invested in an arc that would meet all the requirements on 5979 except the walls so in the very worst case situation I need to thickens one walls but my gut feeling is we have already over invested and that the police have no hunger to shutdown non approved operations, in fact as an approved company I can't get secured by design approval, but non approved thats fine. What message does that send out?

[james.wilson]

I agree arf but there seems to be no will from the police ti stop it. The bsia will be working on a guideline document but it will be totally voluntary. Unless its embraced by an inspectorate or the police themselves then mist will ignore it. The urn side of the business is going to be radically different within 5 yrs Imo.

[matthew.brough]

I agree arf but there seems to be no will from the police ti stop it. The bsia will be working on a guideline document but it will be totally voluntary. Unless its embraced by an inspectorate or the police themselves then mist will ignore it. The urn side of the business is going to be radically different within 5 yrs Imo.

Don't get me wrong James, I want them to stop it and force us to go down cat2. From all I see and talk with the police they don't have the hunger which is to the detriment of us all.

[norman]

Plenty of the police I see seem to have 'the hunger'

[matthew.brough]

Plenty of the police I see seem to have 'the hunger'

But the people who make the rules and write the policy seem to be full up and not very hungry.

[arfur mo]

But the people who make the rules and write the policy seem to be full up and not very hungry.

do you or James think the inertia is perhaps complacency, have they have forgotten the bad old days of 98% of automatic calls being false alarms?

Matt, I don't offer any criticisms, you are running a fully legal business afaik, just tbh i can't help feeling in my bones it's not in the true spirit so speak, but then to balance this out the Police are public purse paid, and so should respond to protect without placing obstacles in the way.

When i started at 17, it used to be thought alarms actually assisted them in their work to catch villains, even saved them on time spent detecting, but later years they have become to be seen as a scourge of inconvenience, and budget resource draining annoyance.

btw - the remaining 2% came from my systems .

[matthew.brough]

do you or James think the inertia is perhaps complacency, have they have forgotten the bad old days of 98% of automatic calls being false alarms?

Matt, I don't offer any criticisms, you are running a fully legal business afaik, just tbh i can't help feeling in my bones it's not in the true spirit so speak, but then to balance this out the Police are public purse paid, and so should respond to protect without placing obstacles in the way.

When i started at 17, it used to be thought alarms actually assisted them in their work to catch villains, even saved them on time spent detecting, but later years they have become to be seen as a scourge of inconvenience, and budget resource draining annoyance.

I think you have the resource draining annoyance right but I think the service has change. I'm not convinced the police 'service' is anything if the sort anymore.

What we are doing arc wise isn't in the true spirit, but something we do as the police by their non insistance on cat 2 arcs have given my non approved competitors and advantage over all the guys who want to do it the approved way and that's the most annoying part. Looking forward to the days alarm response is in the private sector too.

[james.wilson]

Arf. I just think its a natural evolution of technology. Video or audio confirm is available to the masses. Noticed today in b&q that response have a diy system that sends images yo phones. Once that's installed diy user calls police themselves.