Equipment changes

[Brian c]

Yes, the system may have been put in 10/15 years ago and was ideal for the situation at that time, but components age, plastic changes its structure, people smoke, paint etc, etc. You also have to consider that just as technology has changed so has the ways of defeating them.

The basic technology has hardly changed over the last 15 years, and just look at how many Installers are re-discovering SONIC detectors, thus going backwards in technology.

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Dave, would you fit a sonic that had ten years of service and was in the back of your van after being replaced with a dualtech? No, if you were going to fit a sonic, you would go and buy a brand new one from a wholesalers. Why? Because, even if it was in great asthetic condition, it is old. The processing technology of sonic detectors has also improved. Again I say, electrical components degrade over time, and replacing old with new after ten years or so is just good practice. I would do it in my own home even after ten years of trouble free usage.

[Service Engineer]

If I replace a detector for any reason the old one goes in the customers bin unless its failed while still within warranty, in which case it gets sent back to the supplier.

I fail to see your point though, why would I have old used detectors in my van..?

Again I say, electrical components degrade over time, and replacing old with new after ten years or so is just good practice

Again I say that just because a detector is old, is no grounds to justify changing it. You must take loads of other things into consideration too, namely is it still fit for its intended purpose, but also its reliability over the last year, its suitabillity for its future coverage should the customer inform you of pending changes, etc etc.

I have changed old Detectors in the past but never due purely to there age.

[Brian c]

it was hypothetical dave. I meant if you had a ten year old used sonic and a brand new one, which would you use. The new one every time.

would you consider using the old one due to it having a ten year history of no false alarms. If you would use the new every time, then you obviously agree that new is better than old.

[Service Engineer]

The build quality of some old detectors/panels will never be equaled by todays hitech, low cost, mass produced, counterparts. I do have 3X15 year old still boxed sonics ready for use should I ever need them.

13 Years ago Brittania (now owned by Secom) installed 5 sonics (to replace false alarming Dual-Tech`s) in my fathers workplace, they have never false alarmed, are walk tested weekly, and the monitored system is serviced every 6 months.

Why would Secom want to replace those perfectly reliable detectors..? If not just to raise a little revenue..? Electronic devices do not degrade over time half as much as you seem to think. In fact it is more often than not the cheap un-sealed relays in devices that start to pack in way before any electronic component.

[Service Engineer]

Quote from Alarmgard.

If you are only using it as a bells only system then you dont need to change it simply because it is old.

Taken from a discussion concerning a Bently F133 control panel at least 15-20 years old. Funny how opinions change to suit the topic..?

[morph]

Very good Dave, but if you only take one line out of the previous post and only choose to understand part of what I said in my new post, then yes opinions change. Post that was referred to:

But back in the real world ,if you read what I had said

"As a professional installer you have to take this risk into account and as such you can only reccomend that the system is no longer compliant or suitable for the associated "Risk" if you simply attend every year, service the system, collect the money and issue a service docket then you are essentially accepting that the system is suitable for the risk. Yes initially you can log it on the service docket that things need to be improved but how long do you continue to do that for, there is also the point of what the insurance company would say if the property was broken into, who is liable? the Customer for not listening or you for not acting?"

I draw reference to the fact that you have to take into account the "risk" that encompasses all the elements of the device, whether it be the location, the device, the electronics or the environment or even the susceptibility to be being defeated.

You are quite right in saying that the build quality of a detector 10/15 years ago may have been far superior due to the level of human intervention, but are you seriously saying that the actual devices performed better. If you take all the factors/tolerances into account then I fail to see how you could justify this.

And electronics do degrade with age, use, and as does cabling. The reality of how quickly this happens is dependant on a number of factors, but mainly due the environment and the use that they are subjected to.

By the way I fitted a brand new Bentley F133 only two weeks ago!!

"The basic technology has hardly changed over the last 15 years, and just look at how many Installers are re-discovering SONIC detectors, thus going backwards in technology."

Not really. Aritech and Alarmcom have been making and selling them for years, just engineers regarded them as old technology, every device has a use, its down to the surveyor understanding there suitability for use and application. If more sales people actually understood the products they were selling then a lot more so called "obscure" products would reamerge onto the open market. Generally though installers wont embrace Ultrasonics due to the cost difference between a standard dual tech and an ultrasonic device. Eng is great supporter of ultrasonics, but I would generally put that down to the fact that his employer has to buy them, if it was down to him he wouldn't be buying them.

If an old product still meets the requirements of the "risk" that it has been fitted to protect, then yes there is no need to change it simply because of age.

Colin.

Ps. Am I right in thinking that you are using your nice new galaxy panel to protect your home rather than the old Gartec 800 series panel that you previously had, purely because the "Risk" has changed or was it just because you wanted something a bit more up to date

[Service Engineer]

My old 1994 Gardtec 816 was changed purely due to me needing a Compliant panel for monitoring to meet DD243. There was nothing wrong with the 816.

I draw reference to the fact that you have to take into account the "risk" that encompasses all the elements of the device, whether it be the location, the device, the electronics or the environment or even the susceptibility to be being defeated.

Of course, but age alone is never the only risk taken into account.

You are quite right in saying that the build quality of a detector 10/15 years ago may have been far superior due to the level of human intervention, but are you seriously saying that the actual devices performed better. If you take all the factors/tolerances into account then I fail to see how you could justify this.

And electronics do degrade with age, use, and as does cabling. The reality of how quickly this happens is dependant on a number of factors, but mainly due the environment and the use that they are subjected to.

I didnt say the devices performed better I just said if there doing the job they were intended for then why change them if circumstances have not changed, todays inclination to make everything smaller has though resulted in less forgiving components.

If an old product still meets the requirements of the "risk" that it has been fitted to protect, then yes there is no need to change it simply because of age.

Well thats all I `ve been saying all along..

[abbz]

britannia were taken over by //.National Installer.// not secom. well if its the same britannia i used to work for back in early ninties anyway

[Nova-Security]

Just to add,

Scantronic 9100 (16 Zones) A old 9100 4mm steel (what a panel)

3 x door contacts

9 X Racal 772 Passives

Been in since year dot, on level one Police never had a false alarm, so what its all about.

Arrowhead pirs, leave in they were the best at the time and still got some 360 arrowheads in premise now.

[bellman]

Just to add,

Scantronic 9100 (16 Zones) A old 9100 4mm steel (what a panel)

3 x door contacts

9 X Racal 772 Passives

Been in since year dot, on level one Police never had a false alarm, so what its all about.

Arrowhead pirs, leave in they were the best at the time and still got some 360 arrowheads in premise now.

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Quality equipment stands the test of time.

Just because it's old dosn't mean it needs to be upgraded. it's the customers choice after all said and done. I generaly don't change equipment unless it is providing insufficient protection, was incorrectly spcified for the enviroment or it was irreparable.

If your pitching new upgrades to your customers everytime you see them, they will start to view you with the same contempt as they have for salesmen. Good honest advice always works better.

I usually find it sufficient to mention new features that are now within their budget (SMS text messaging for example) and leave them to make their own minds up.

Regards

Bellman