Security - fire alarm link

[AdamG]

Good evening all,

 

What a fantastic forum you have here - was pointed in your direction by a colleague.

 

A little scenario to pick your brains: 

A customer of mine wants their fire alarm (fike twinflex pro) connected to their security system G3-96.

 

The link will be multi-purpose; sounding the fire alarm using the non-latching technical input (so auto silence after the Galaxy bell timer has expired)in the event of an alarm condition and also to move the fire alarm between day/night mode when the Galaxy is *full* set. 

 

I haven't tried this in 'the lab' yet but the switch from day/night (which basically shifts the sensors from smoke&heat to just heat - not quite as flexible as the trusty kentec syncro!) will be on a monitored input (3k3 eol resistor with a 630ohm (can't remember value) trigger. The remote sounder trigger (technical) will be a non-monitored 'short to sound' input.

 

I plan to use the bell output (via relay) to trigger technical input of fire system. I want to use a combination of two outputs (with relays) to change the fire alarm state - these will be 'set' and 'strobe'. I will use the strobe output to interrupt the set output - so the fire alarm returns to smoke&heat in the event of an intruder being on the premises (or more likely) the users not unsetting the system after an activation. (I'm pretty sure the set state does not toggle during an intruder activation - but as I say, haven't tried this in the lab). 

 

Soooo.... I could take a 4core fp200 on a long run to a smart rio (room for the relays) or I could break into/extend the rs485 loop and drop a rio board into the twinflex (there's loads of room where the 4zone expansion board would go). I'd ruin the aesthetics of their entrance hall putting a surface mount rio near the neatly recessed fire panel.

 

If I put the Rio board into the twinflex I'd ideally need to tamper both front removable panels and the rear of the unit - this is achievable.

 

Off the top of your heads - if a remote rio remains powered but loses databus - how long before the outputs reset? 

 

I'm happy for the Rio to lose power and databus, they'd lose internal sound from the fire panel (hey ho) but the set relay would drop restoring the fire panel to smoke&fire.

 

Personally I don't think security/fire should be linked - but I've been set the challenge by the consultant and fike don't have an issue with additional low voltage circuitary being sensibly mounted in their control panel. 

 

Thanks in advance
Adam

 

 

 

 

[sixwheeledbeast]

Hi, quite a long first post.

Am I missing something here, why is the intruder triggering the fire alarm?

Forget all the technical side for now, what does the consultant want/expect to achieve by linking the systems?

 

[AdamG]

Hullo,

 

They are after 2 functions:

 

The fire alarm will change state and only respond to heat alarms when the system is full set.

 

They want to use the fire alarm sounders as internal sounders for the security alarm. 

 

Thanks

Adam

 

[datadiffusion]

4 minutes ago, AdamG said:

Hullo,

 

The fire alarm will change state and only respond to heat alarms when the system is full set.

 

Because...?

 

4 minutes ago, AdamG said:

They want to use the fire alarm sounders as internal sounders for the security alarm. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPItNLXT_pw

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by datadiffusion

[PeterJames]

13 minutes ago, datadiffusion said:

 

Because...?

 

 

 

I guess during the day the place is hostile to smokes, and so need it as a heat only. We have a leisure centre that send out one set of messages on the PA system during the day (Staff announcement 51)  and another when the place is closed (Get out the place is on Fire)

I also guess any burglar breaking in and the Fire alarm goes off is gonna know he has been rumbled 

 

BTW welcome Adam

[sixwheeledbeast]

I don't understand why you would make a system less sensitive while the site is unoccupied.

 

As for using the fire sounders for security, I just wouldn't.

[AdamG]

This is a research/educational farm, fine when open but notorious for false alarms when shut up. Fire alarm is specifically to protect human life. 

 

Agree with your thoughts on the internal sounders... but I'm the make it happen person not the consultant.

[datadiffusion]

14 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

I don't understand why you would make a system less sensitive while the site is unoccupied.

 

As for using the fire sounders for security, I just wouldn't.

 

Sort of suggests it's not set up right if you can't trust it at night without being nobbled. Not saying this is your fault but feels like sticky plaster fix.

[AdamG]

It's a difficult one. I get the need for the sensitivity during manned hours - it's a big place and there's a heck of a lot of sawdust / straw and dust making insects. It wouldn't take much for it to go up (and it would probably be caused by something with 2 legs!)

 

I think a different fire panel such as the syncro (my fav)with discovery heads would have been better - can actually adjust the sensitivity by input then and do some magic with cause/effect... but I think my tenure here would be short if I openly criticised the twinflex they've put in. 

 

I've so far successfully fought against remote sounder disablement and the really awful idea of a delay-on relay on the conventional sounder output to trigger a panel silence after 15mins (yes you read that correctly).

 

I can shake my head, tut and cover my ass with an email trail but not walk away  

[Shaunb1905]

Change it for adressable and put multi sensors in and set up cause and effect, day and night mode?