Anusoflannigan Posted July 22, 2006 Posted July 22, 2006 And mines not Anus.. but there we go. Rarely use screened cable on id unless obvious potential problems, no big issues as yet! Old id works fine with new panels (prem 48, gardtec 800's etc) on its own or mixed with id+..so far
arfur mo Posted July 22, 2006 Posted July 22, 2006 And mines not Anus.. but there we go. and i never thought any different regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
arfur mo Posted July 22, 2006 Posted July 22, 2006 ........ and mine's Roger, George!No, the screen issue has come to the fore because of possible interference on what is essentially a data line. maybe Jef, but i'm not sure if this was due to other makes of panels having faults being caused this way or suspected as so. with iD on AD&E or Gradtec panels i have never had an issue i could not solve and without screen cable. on one instal on a house which was under pylon lines with the wires passing directly overhead, i kept getting intermittent line shorts. fully supecting interference, but decied on using the basic approach, i ripped out the cables one by one to inspect every inch, on the last legnth 9as always) i found a nail point through had gone into a cable inside a wardrobe, out of direct view. apparerntly 2 days after i had installed a carpenter did some works and refited some trim - using nails far longer than needed and cought this cable. like i said on Ultimates the PSU has always been the problem, but took me some time to sus this one out, having gone though the cap on the data line routines . on occasions it has also manifested itself in keypad tamper faults. just proves what we can see as and suspected the most complicated technical answer, to actually be caused by a 'simple' fault. i had simply replaced with screen that would have cured it, and i could claim the interference was the problem, but in truth i would have been misled if i had not spoted that nail puncture, replacing with screen simply removed the introduced fault mechanicaly not due to RFi at all. i'd be interested if you or anyone have actual instances where fitting screen cable cured the problems, and if so given the above you/they feel really confident interference was the real cause, or did fitting the screen simply eradicate an installation eror, or some unseen damage? regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Vince8282 Posted July 23, 2006 Posted July 23, 2006 I have not had any problems when mixing old with new biscuits and the only problems I have had with any id panels is usually down to poor installation by "engineers" with over zealous sidecutters maiming the legs of the biscuits or failing to secure the legs within the connections(just like resistors on Galaxies etc). I always use the screened cables on these even when the manufactures said that you don't need to Coz I don't believe them Practice in the morning, practice at night. Practice in the evening, until you get it right. Only make sure you are practising in the right way at the right time for it.
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Posted July 23, 2006 I have not had any problems when mixing old with new biscuits and the only problems I have had with any id panels is usually down to poor installation by "engineers" with over zealous sidecutters maiming the legs of the biscuits or failing to secure the legs within the connections(just like resistors on Galaxies etc).I always use the screened cables on these even when the manufactures said that you don't need to Coz I don't believe them QFA Vince, good connections are essential on all systems, but the instal guy oftern is not the one who has the call out to deal with so it don't much matter to him iD kit is that bit more touchy about it, 'unfortunately' for want of a better word, as you always run screen cable, you have no comparrason 'evidence' that proved you actually needed too. no diss intended as what works for you is always right imo. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Vince8282 Posted July 23, 2006 Posted July 23, 2006 QFA Vince,good connections are essential on all systems, but the instal guy oftern is not the one who has the call out to deal with so it don't much matter to him iD kit is that bit more touchy about it, 'unfortunately' for want of a better word, as you always run screen cable, you have no comparrason 'evidence' that proved you actually needed too. no diss intended as what works for you is always right imo. regs alan I am of the school "If it aint broke don't fix it" This being the case if I haven't had a problem doing it my way, why should I change my way to see if it causes me problems????? Practice in the morning, practice at night. Practice in the evening, until you get it right. Only make sure you are practising in the right way at the right time for it.
arfur mo Posted July 23, 2006 Posted July 23, 2006 I am of the school "If it aint broke don't fix it" This being the case if I haven't had a problem doing it my way, why should I change my way to see if it causes me problems????? no, of course not Vince, as i said if it works for you then it's usually right. we all have die hard methods, my personal 'tick' is power connections, i hate it when all the reds are twisted together from the outer sleeving to the terminal block, and the same with the black cores, makes for slower breaking up and identifying of the cores when looking for a fault. and if using terminal block for several cores hen extending into aux supply, i insist all the cables are fed into the block from the same side and all are twisted together, to prevent intermittent connections. my thrust was on a fault call, you may fix the problem by fitting screen cable in replacement. but you may have had exactely the same result had ordinary cable been used. the connections would be re-made so fixing a 'hidden' fault. thats what i suspect has happened to many installations, where changing to screen perhaps in exasperation, has cleared the problem in this way, but iit is beleived because screen was used and killed RFi. incidentally i never used the spare cores as 'earth drains' either, without a single problem on systems with long runs in factories and offices, even in flats or where there is heavy duty mains nearby. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
clivesorts Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Now that the production of ID biscuits has stopped, and been replaced with production of ID+ biscuits, I fear we may have a problem when it comes to one or two faulty biscuits on a site.Castle Care-Tech assure us that you can mix the old ID and the new ID+ biscuits, and there will be no problem. (but then when they first introduced ID, they told us that the cable didn't require screening...) Has anyone had experience of mixing the two yet? So far I've not been brave enough, and have either replaced with standard ID biscuits, (but stocks will soon run low) or replaced all biscuits on site with ID+. Even if they do work OK together, there is still the problem of calculating nominal resistance across the ID line, (ID is 87K / biscuit, ID+ 1250K) - you can work out the theoretical resistance if you know how many of each are on the line, but I'm not sure how to make it as valuable as with just one or the other. D7 We have been installing Castle Care Tech for 20 years plus. A few months ago we had major problems in a large School ( system 3 years old ) due to a storm and we had to change about 25 iD biscuits. I had a long chat with Castle tech help and they said it was OK to mix old iD & iD plus biscuits however to make sure that the iD plus biscuits we fitted were of a higher value than the old iD biscuits ??? This was impossible to abide by as we had biscuits faulty all over the place 1, 3, 5 etc... The most important point with iD biscuits is to have as few joins as possible and any joins to be done well and soldered. Anyway we just changed what we hat to, had a few twin devices and tampers come up however we eventually cured it. Since then our Engineers have changed biscuits as & when needed on other sites and 95% of the time it has been OK.
arfur mo Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 hi all, over years (and i have used iD from realy early days of inception), i found them very very reliable and i have never needed to use screen cable. not that its a proplem to do so but will reduce the cable legnth due to capacative effects. solder if you feel more confident by all means, but beware the the connections to the chip as tese may be made 'dry' if not connected quickly. connections have always to be of a sound high quality, i've seen too many shorts caused by too much inner showing in contacts especially. another word of caution, do not 'overtwist' when tidying cables as this too can cause doubled, or missing iD's as well as 'line shorts'. i always wanted to dispense with the plastic 'envelope' and have the plug in chips only, then have 'free wired' sockets. idea was never taken up, which i thought strange as this would allow one type of chip to be stocked and produced, and AD&E promoted the iD socket fitted in many detectors. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 A few months ago we had major problems in a large School ( system 3 years old ) due to a storm and we had to change about 25 iD biscuits. to be honest with a storm i would have replaced the controls over years (and i have used iD from realy early days of inception), i found them very very reliable and i have never needed to use screen cable. not that its a proplem to do so but will reduce the cable legnth due to capacative effects. fitted early ade stuff unscreened, no capacitors or nowt with no problems i always wanted to dispense with the plastic 'envelope' and have the plug in chips only, then have 'free wired' sockets. idea was never taken up, which i thought strange as this would allow one type of chip to be stocked and produced, and AD&E promoted the iD socket fitted in many detectors. optex?
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