Domestic CCTV and Human Rights Act Article 8

[Nelboy]

I have had CCTV on my home for roughly 7 years due to threatening behaviour from my next door neighbour. I am classified as a "vulnerable adult" and live with somebody who has clinical anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. The behaviour from my neighbour has meant I have had to add-on to the CCTV in a piecemeal manner over the years - initially it was a case that my neighbour didn't like me welding in my own garage and stated he'd "knock my head off" if I did it again, so I fitted up cameras including a PTZ on the front corner of the property *BUT* with no recording facility as the cameras were intended purely as a deterrent. For a few years he made no comments about the CCTV, even during the first covid lockdown which included the weekly Thursday clapping in which we was perfectly fine and talkative. During 2021 he suddenly developed an aversion to the CCTV, he started referring to me as a pedophile for having cameras up and started insiting his children weren't using the back garden due to my cameras (total nonsense), and due to this sudden increase in hostility I had to fit a DVR - due to a very low budget I reached out to contacts and was offered a Dedicated Micros DS2, which I know some folks will laugh at but it has done the job up to now. In order to appease my neighbour I moved the front PTZ away from the front corner of the property so that it could no longer look from the front down the side and towards the rear garages, and in order to still be able to view our side driveway / passage I fitted a static camera above our side porch facing forward to the street - initially this was a fairly old box camera which had no night vision and no privacy zone function (it was only by placing a bit of black tape over the front glass that I could shield off coverage of his side yard), and so I eventually replaced it with a small Vista fixed mini dome; the mini dome has privacy zones set up so that it is not possible to see anybody walking around in the side yard (the camera has no optical zoom applied and the recording is roughly 700x500px so is low resolution). I had my Nikon DS5100 set up on a tripod to act as protection whilst I was fitting the DS2 DVR in case my neighbour started up anything, and I have a video from 2021 where he tried starting up another argument, and in it he states "if you took that camera down ((meaning the front PTZ which was on the corner)) and replaced it with a smaller one I'd be ever so happy and have nothing to complain about" - and this is what I did. At first he was OK with the front PTZ being away from the corner, but after a few weeks elapsed he resumed referring to me as a pedophile, a freak, a wierdo, a pervert, and suchlike - this has included him shouting a phrase equivalent to "go back to where you came from" as he believes we used to live on a council estate (which is incorrect). On one occasion he stood on his back doorstep shouting and bawling at me "MONGEE MONGEE YOU'RE A F*CKING MONGEE", and as I have Autism I deem that to be a hate crime so I told him I'd had enough and would turn on audio recording. In January 2023 I came onto my driveway early one morning and my neighbour sees me from his upstairs hall window, which at that point he was leaving the blinds open 24 hours a day 7 days a week even at night time, so he saw my side security light come on and then sneaks downstairs - he accused me of theft (baseless accusation) and then says to me "you're a frigging mongee and it's only because you've got Aspergers and you're a bit f*cking doolally that nobody does owt about you"; I told him that had all just been recorded and he goes "I don't care, do you want - revenge is sweet and it's coming". That evidence was seen by the police including the audio, and the officer tells him he has committed a hate crime which is a criminal offense but my neighbour gaslighted the officer trying to blame us for his actions.... in the months since then he has directed comments at the side passage camera now he knows it has audio recording, and at the front he has come home in the car with his teenage kids and gone "smile you're on camera, you're on pedo camera", he has continued to refer to me as a "nutcase" and as "the muffin man".

He regularly stands on tiptoes to look over the side fence and onto our property, even trying to see if we're in the back garden (on two previous occasions I have seen him standing as close to our back gate as he can to try and hear what we're talking about in our garden); he will put things in his car and then walk along the public footpath a few steps to take a look down the length of our side passage; and when I started digging footings for a new garden shed at the back of our property he poured concrete into part of those footings which was then followed by taking paving slabs from where he had them stored and placing 6 or 7 of them against my fence so as to prevent me removing the fence to put the new shed in place. When I did start builging the new shed, within 3 hours of me completing the first wall he had kicked down part of it - the next day I had repaired and reinforced it and he kicked it a further 2 times, the last time has caused damage which will cost in excess of £200 to properly repair. The first time he kicked down the wall section I was inside the house and saw it on the CCTV monitor, and I turned on the external speaker and stated "you are being recorded on CCTV, any damage will be reported to police". His claim is that because I had to push away the paving slabs that he'd deliberately put against my fence to cause a nuisance it had broken one of them (two at most, though since then I've had a look from the shed roof and there are additional slabs broken which were not done by me, the breaks eminating from a central point as if to suggest impact by a hammer), though I had contacted police before this of which the officer had stated that because he was causing criminal damage by putting the slabs against our fence we were free to remove them. However, after kicking my shed wall for the 3rd time my CCTV caught my neighbour stating "that guy's gonna pay for his debt if I ever get my hands on him" which I perceive to be a threat of violence against myself.

We have now received a solicitors letter in the post in which our neighbour is using Article 8 of the Human Rights Act to claim our CCTV is illegal (intrusion of privacy etc), and wants all cameras at the front and side of our property removed including the audio recording, claiming the cameras record video "in" his back garden. In the past I have tried to tell my neighbour that his back garden is not recorded and I even offered to take photos of the screen showing the various camera feeds, and he responded "I don't care, I don't wanna know"; and we have had police officers view the footage and have told us there are no laws being broken. The side passage camera has privacy zones in place, and the camera viewing our garage door points downwards so that the cutoff point is at the top of the fence. The microphone for the side passage camera points forward towards the street. Before turning on audio recording I did look at information on the ICO page regarding CCTV audio recording, and this page stated that whilst it is recommended to disable audio recording there are certain circumstances where it is allowed for the purposes of collecting evidence.. I have also recently seen this thread here in which a comment on page 2 suggests recording audio is legal...

A house diagonally opposite me has a doorbell camera fitted, and I know these record audio as well as having a wide-angle lens fitted which will be recording the front of our properties including that of my neighbour. Given that am the victim of recurring harassement from my neighbour, which includes threats of violence and verbal hate crime, would this fall into a category in which audio recording would be deemed legitimate? The evidence from my CCTV system is currently with police as part of a live ongoing investigation; as previously with the 'Mongee' incident and previous incidents we had decided not to press charges as we have to still live next door to this person - but since he has now deliberately vandalised our property we have now agreed with police to retrospectively press charges for those offenses, and so at the moment I don't want to move or remove any of the CCTV equipment as I worry it may be deemed as either an admission of wrongdoing or altering evidence on my part (plus obviously I don't want to remove any CCTV equipment anyway given his threating and abusive behaviour towards us)
 

[sixwheeledbeast]

It seems like you needed to vent... but I wouldn't expect most to read a post of this length.

PTZ and audio on domestic is generally a bad idea, people feel overlooked even if you don't use it that way.

I have seen situations were councils have sent papers to have cameras removed after/during neighbour disputes, they seem to find allsorts of old legislation to back this up. Can be a loosing battle as they are looking for the quickest way to remove the issue.

Fixed camera installations are covered under different rules to doorbells. This doesn't mean you can't breach privacy or DPA with a doorbell tho. Recording audio 24/7 generally creates these issues which is why I wouldn't recommend.

I assume your system isn't registered with the ICO? What evidence do they have for branch of privacy?

If you are able to hear audio from their property then I would say it's an obvious privacy issue.

I think your at the point its time to find a good solicitor if you plan to stay and fight but expect to spend. Mediation would be cheaper but I doubt that it would happen now if you have pressed charges and he is contacting solicitors.

Also bear in mind that post you linked is from 2015

[al-yeti]

10 hours ago, Nelboy said:

I have had CCTV on my home for roughly 7 years due to threatening behaviour from my next door neighbour. I am classified as a "vulnerable adult" and live with somebody who has clinical anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. The behaviour from my neighbour has meant I have had to add-on to the CCTV in a piecemeal manner over the years - initially it was a case that my neighbour didn't like me welding in my own garage and stated he'd "knock my head off" if I did it again, so I fitted up cameras including a PTZ on the front corner of the property *BUT* with no recording facility as the cameras were intended purely as a deterrent. For a few years he made no comments about the CCTV, even during the first covid lockdown which included the weekly Thursday clapping in which we was perfectly fine and talkative. During 2021 he suddenly developed an aversion to the CCTV, he started referring to me as a pedophile for having cameras up and started insiting his children weren't using the back garden due to my cameras (total nonsense), and due to this sudden increase in hostility I had to fit a DVR - due to a very low budget I reached out to contacts and was offered a Dedicated Micros DS2, which I know some folks will laugh at but it has done the job up to now. In order to appease my neighbour I moved the front PTZ away from the front corner of the property so that it could no longer look from the front down the side and towards the rear garages, and in order to still be able to view our side driveway / passage I fitted a static camera above our side porch facing forward to the street - initially this was a fairly old box camera which had no night vision and no privacy zone function (it was only by placing a bit of black tape over the front glass that I could shield off coverage of his side yard), and so I eventually replaced it with a small Vista fixed mini dome; the mini dome has privacy zones set up so that it is not possible to see anybody walking around in the side yard (the camera has no optical zoom applied and the recording is roughly 700x500px so is low resolution). I had my Nikon DS5100 set up on a tripod to act as protection whilst I was fitting the DS2 DVR in case my neighbour started up anything, and I have a video from 2021 where he tried starting up another argument, and in it he states "if you took that camera down ((meaning the front PTZ which was on the corner)) and replaced it with a smaller one I'd be ever so happy and have nothing to complain about" - and this is what I did. At first he was OK with the front PTZ being away from the corner, but after a few weeks elapsed he resumed referring to me as a pedophile, a freak, a wierdo, a pervert, and suchlike - this has included him shouting a phrase equivalent to "go back to where you came from" as he believes we used to live on a council estate (which is incorrect). On one occasion he stood on his back doorstep shouting and bawling at me "MONGEE MONGEE YOU'RE A F*CKING MONGEE", and as I have Autism I deem that to be a hate crime so I told him I'd had enough and would turn on audio recording. In January 2023 I came onto my driveway early one morning and my neighbour sees me from his upstairs hall window, which at that point he was leaving the blinds open 24 hours a day 7 days a week even at night time, so he saw my side security light come on and then sneaks downstairs - he accused me of theft (baseless accusation) and then says to me "you're a frigging mongee and it's only because you've got Aspergers and you're a bit f*cking doolally that nobody does owt about you"; I told him that had all just been recorded and he goes "I don't care, do you want - revenge is sweet and it's coming". That evidence was seen by the police including the audio, and the officer tells him he has committed a hate crime which is a criminal offense but my neighbour gaslighted the officer trying to blame us for his actions.... in the months since then he has directed comments at the side passage camera now he knows it has audio recording, and at the front he has come home in the car with his teenage kids and gone "smile you're on camera, you're on pedo camera", he has continued to refer to me as a "nutcase" and as "the muffin man".

He regularly stands on tiptoes to look over the side fence and onto our property, even trying to see if we're in the back garden (on two previous occasions I have seen him standing as close to our back gate as he can to try and hear what we're talking about in our garden); he will put things in his car and then walk along the public footpath a few steps to take a look down the length of our side passage; and when I started digging footings for a new garden shed at the back of our property he poured concrete into part of those footings which was then followed by taking paving slabs from where he had them stored and placing 6 or 7 of them against my fence so as to prevent me removing the fence to put the new shed in place. When I did start builging the new shed, within 3 hours of me completing the first wall he had kicked down part of it - the next day I had repaired and reinforced it and he kicked it a further 2 times, the last time has caused damage which will cost in excess of £200 to properly repair. The first time he kicked down the wall section I was inside the house and saw it on the CCTV monitor, and I turned on the external speaker and stated "you are being recorded on CCTV, any damage will be reported to police". His claim is that because I had to push away the paving slabs that he'd deliberately put against my fence to cause a nuisance it had broken one of them (two at most, though since then I've had a look from the shed roof and there are additional slabs broken which were not done by me, the breaks eminating from a central point as if to suggest impact by a hammer), though I had contacted police before this of which the officer had stated that because he was causing criminal damage by putting the slabs against our fence we were free to remove them. However, after kicking my shed wall for the 3rd time my CCTV caught my neighbour stating "that guy's gonna pay for his debt if I ever get my hands on him" which I perceive to be a threat of violence against myself.

We have now received a solicitors letter in the post in which our neighbour is using Article 8 of the Human Rights Act to claim our CCTV is illegal (intrusion of privacy etc), and wants all cameras at the front and side of our property removed including the audio recording, claiming the cameras record video "in" his back garden. In the past I have tried to tell my neighbour that his back garden is not recorded and I even offered to take photos of the screen showing the various camera feeds, and he responded "I don't care, I don't wanna know"; and we have had police officers view the footage and have told us there are no laws being broken. The side passage camera has privacy zones in place, and the camera viewing our garage door points downwards so that the cutoff point is at the top of the fence. The microphone for the side passage camera points forward towards the street. Before turning on audio recording I did look at information on the ICO page regarding CCTV audio recording, and this page stated that whilst it is recommended to disable audio recording there are certain circumstances where it is allowed for the purposes of collecting evidence.. I have also recently seen this thread here in which a comment on page 2 suggests recording audio is legal...

A house diagonally opposite me has a doorbell camera fitted, and I know these record audio as well as having a wide-angle lens fitted which will be recording the front of our properties including that of my neighbour. Given that am the victim of recurring harassement from my neighbour, which includes threats of violence and verbal hate crime, would this fall into a category in which audio recording would be deemed legitimate? The evidence from my CCTV system is currently with police as part of a live ongoing investigation; as previously with the 'Mongee' incident and previous incidents we had decided not to press charges as we have to still live next door to this person - but since he has now deliberately vandalised our property we have now agreed with police to retrospectively press charges for those offenses, and so at the moment I don't want to move or remove any of the CCTV equipment as I worry it may be deemed as either an admission of wrongdoing or altering evidence on my part (plus obviously I don't want to remove any CCTV equipment anyway given his threating and abusive behaviour towards us)
 

Keep logging and reporting, not sure I would agree that councils have power to remove cameras though , because probably those that did , didn't pursue what powers they actually have and follow a course of action with them , most people want the problem to go away if that makes sense.

 

Evidence is crucial , also look up the info on nusciance neighbours I seen people get also done by councils and courts although it takes a long time and patience to log and report log and report , eventually you will hopefully be on winning side 

 

Some people do deserve action against them 

[Nelboy]

22 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

It seems like you needed to vent... but I wouldn't expect most to read a post of this length.

PTZ and audio on domestic is generally a bad idea, people feel overlooked even if you don't use it that way.

I have seen situations were councils have sent papers to have cameras removed after/during neighbour disputes, they seem to find allsorts of old legislation to back this up. Can be a loosing battle as they are looking for the quickest way to remove the issue.

Fixed camera installations are covered under different rules to doorbells. This doesn't mean you can't breach privacy or DPA with a doorbell tho. Recording audio 24/7 generally creates these issues which is why I wouldn't recommend.

I assume your system isn't registered with the ICO? What evidence do they have for branch of privacy?

If you are able to hear audio from their property then I would say it's an obvious privacy issue.

I think your at the point its time to find a good solicitor if you plan to stay and fight but expect to spend. Mediation would be cheaper but I doubt that it would happen now if you have pressed charges and he is contacting solicitors.

Also bear in mind that post you linked is from 2015

The installation is not registered with the ICO. As far as I'm aware my neighbour does not have any evidence to prove breaches of privacy other than photos of our cameras such as the front PTZ facing down to look at our driveway (of which he then walks around from his driveway and stand in the middle of our driveway taking photos of our property) - the solicitors letter I have received is not even worded as such as "remove microphones" but rather to remove the talkback speakers under the belief that the speakers record audio. When I first set up audio recording it was in response to continued verbal abuse from my neighbour, and it was one point where he called me a pervert that I stated "i've had enough of your abuse, I'm turning on microphones" so it's not like he didn't have fair warning.... and even then when I did turn the microphones on, I wired the audio out from each microphone through a seperate output relay on the DS2 which was then configured to close when the respective camera was in 'Alarm' state - so only when a PIR sensor detected somebody moving on our property would audio then be recorded, and at any other time the audio was muted; the reason why the 'Mongee' hate crime had recorded audio is because I had just arrived home and so was walking along the side driveway. It is only because I had my bedroom window open and overheard him talking from his side of the street across the width of the road to a neighbour opposite and referring to me as a pedophile then I turned on an override switch to connect the microphones outside of a sensor activation - and even then the microphone for the side passage camera only picks up audio forward of it's position (unless he's raising his voice, banging something, or shouting), during the hot spell we had in June him and his kids were in their back garden on an afternoon and at weekends his parents would visit and sit on the patio talking (I checked the audio to make sure, and it didn't pick up anything); we live on a moderately busy road so noise from passing cars, aeroplanes (we have a vintage aerodrome not too far away so often have single and twin engine prop planes droning overhead), and suchlike mean I have the gain turned right low otherwise any loud noises (such as a 'sports' style car exhaust) distorts the audio and causes the DS2 to crash.

We have been logging in a notepad incidents regarding our neighbour for at least a couple of years following advice from the police; obviously hate crime incidents regarding something that is said don't really get anywhere wituout evidence to back it up as it becomes a "he said x" "no I didn't" type affair. I had been in the process of looking for a newer DVR that could record HD analogue and/or IP cameras with the intention of replacing the Spectra 4 at the front with a pano camera so there would be no moving parts.

This situation has blown up to this level immediately after he caused criminal damage to our property by breaking in to the shed that I was in the process of building. In a video taken in October 2021 he states "I know ways around the law that you don't", so it makes me wonder if this is an attempt to invalidate the CCTV evidence we have against him so he can get off the hook.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nelboy

[sixwheeledbeast]

47 minutes ago, Nelboy said:

wonder if this is an attempt to invalidate the CCTV evidence we have against him so he can get off the hook.

Possibly yes.

Best thing is to maintain dialogue with with police, council, ICO, solicitors etc.

[PeterJames]

Arf is that you?

[Nelboy]

22 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Possibly yes.

Best thing is to maintain dialogue with with police, council, ICO, solicitors etc.

what would be the best approach with regards to contacting the ICO? would it be a case of stating the problems we've been having and explaining why the system is set up as it is, and would there likely be a site visit to check and confirm if anything has to be altered?
My neighbour also has a habit on a saturday of leaving his side door open from about 6pm for 3 or 4 hours - considering he tries to say that audio recording is invading his privacy, this seems an unusual behaviour.

[sixwheeledbeast]

If your system is exempt from needing to register you won't need to contact them, they would write to you if they receive a complaint.

ICO wouldn't get involved in site visits etc, that would be police or council.

I don't believe you have done anything wrong, I just feel from what you have said your method of application has possibly provoked the situation.

Also considering that there are always two sides to these things...

[Nelboy]

well I already know that he hasn't liked the CCTV for some time, as when we've had to contact the police before and they've gone round to him he has then spent half an hour saying it's "frustrating" having cameras next to him and at one point he asked the officer "can't you just go round there and knock their heads in?". He fell out with the neighbours on his other side because their dog got in his garden once and he told them if it happened again then the dog would be going back over the fence on the end of a garden fork; also worth noting his marriage broke up, he told us during the lockdown thursday clapping thing.

[Nelboy]

I had read somewhere that domestic CCTV is exempt from the Data Protection Act due to a clause in one part of it (section 37, I think) so long as the recorded footage is kept on-site. Is this correct or have things changed?