HKC

[PeterJames]

11 hours ago, Terry Hunter said:

At the time there was no logic I could understand, the PIR's installed at correct heights no masking, plenty of additional detection to the rear perimeter. The front of the building is a resturant and bar area so coverage by 3 pirs (not crossing each other) is enough also as it's on a high street vibration on the windows was not an option.

I can only think looking at the images the guy was totally covered up limiting the amount of IR and as the beams were set on medium sensitivity I think was the issue. When the Police arrived (called by a neighbour) everything worked as it should as they went through the door as it was not unlocked.

HKC is very good Ihave hundreds out there, but I think for me it's an eye opener as to not get too complacement with the installation and tweek the system to be more sensitive.

For information the grading for Police was mainly for the PA and the intruder was not a priority, risk assesment and specification approved by insurers and logs of testing to monitoring station all ok.

At the time there was no logic I could understand, the PIR's installed at correct heights no masking, plenty of additional detection to the rear perimeter. The front of the building is a resturant and bar area so coverage by 3 pirs (not crossing each other) is enough also as it's on a high street vibration on the windows was not an option.

I can only think looking at the images the guy was totally covered up limiting the amount of IR and as the beams were set on medium sensitivity I think was the issue. When the Police arrived (called by a neighbour) everything worked as it should as they went through the door as it was not unlocked.

HKC is very good Ihave hundreds out there, but I think for me it's an eye opener as to not get too complacement with the installation and tweek the system to be more sensitive.

For information the grading for Police was mainly for the PA and the intruder was not a priority, risk assesment and specification approved by insurers and logs of testing to monitoring station all ok.

Cut and past the same stuff twice. Infra red is the detection method not what the detector is looking for, infra red detector detects heat or infra red radiation. Its unlikely that anyone can cover themselves up enough not to give off any heat at all . The ambient temp of the room versus the temp of the person. Even if the person was wearing  a foil suit and giving off no heat (unlikely) he would be interrupting heat sources in the room. 

I would be looking a bit closer, what happens when you set the alarm and then walk in front of detectors? 

Nothing of what you have said makes any sense its almost as if your making excuses for the poor performance of your design

[Terry Hunter]

11 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

Cut and past the same stuff twice. Infra red is the detection method not what the detector is looking for, infra red detector detects heat or infra red radiation. Its unlikely that anyone can cover themselves up enough not to give off any heat at all . The ambient temp of the room versus the temp of the person. Even if the person was wearing  a foil suit and giving off no heat (unlikely) he would be interrupting heat sources in the room. 

I would be looking a bit closer, what happens when you set the alarm and then walk in front of detectors? 

Nothing of what you have said makes any sense its almost as if your making excuses for the poor performance of your design

Far from poor design and never will make an excuse but the system did not work when this guy broke in - all maintenance/service testing before and after the event shows everything working as it should - No logic I know other than the guy was covered up!

[norman]

37 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

Infra red is the detection method not what the detector is looking for, infra red detector detects heat or infra red radiation.

Erm...

[sixwheeledbeast]

Still huge pieces of the puzzle missing... is the system wireless? is this an entry route? how much CCTV footage did you see?

If wearing a thick parker would avoid detection then the devices wouldn't be FFP, as it would become a common attack.

Thermal cloaking is in the realm of military tech, not your average burglar looking for till cash.

A confirmed system I would be wanting overlapping DT's in confirmed areas.

 

[Terry Hunter]

7 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Still huge pieces of the puzzle missing... is the system wireless? is this an entry route? how much CCTV footage did you see?

If wearing a thick parker would avoid detection then the devices wouldn't be FFP, as it would become a common attack.

Thermal cloaking is in the realm of military tech, not your average burglar looking for till cash.

A confirmed system I would be wanting overlapping DT's in confirmed areas.

 

Yes wireless, front door not opened but smashed through - full coverage of the guy inside, heavy coat gloves hood and mask, went straight to the till £350 cash. the areas beyond the entry route had PIR's to create the confirmed - not looking at the same area. Front door not opened so entry route, confirmation timers etc. not an issue. Point taken about DT but thought for the risk we had enough kit.

[al-yeti]

1 hour ago, Terry Hunter said:

Yes wireless, front door not opened but smashed through - full coverage of the guy inside, heavy coat gloves hood and mask, went straight to the till £350 cash. the areas beyond the entry route had PIR's to create the confirmed - not looking at the same area. Front door not opened so entry route, confirmation timers etc. not an issue. Point taken about DT but thought for the risk we had enough kit.

So as others might put it, inadequate entry route protection to the till , no entry timer started 

 

Police come walk around like normal, activate detection hence signals sent 

 

You were concerned from start of this post that signals weren't sent , probably, so no detection from outset 

 

That's what I think , he knew where the cash was and it's route 

 

Has anyone else asked for your logs yet and reports, show them here aswell .....

 

 

[Terry Hunter]

6 minutes ago, al-yeti said:

So as others might put it, inadequate entry route protection to the till , no entry timer started 

 

Police come walk around like normal, activate detection hence signals sent 

 

You were concerned from start of this post that signals weren't sent , probably, so no detection from outset 

 

That's what I think , he knew where the cash was and it's route 

 

Has anyone else asked for your logs yet and reports, show them here aswell .....

 

 

there are 3 pir's from the door to the till no door opening so no zone acted as a guard access so if activated it would have created an instant alarm. nothing on the log from the previous night setting until the Police walked in

[al-yeti]

4 minutes ago, Terry Hunter said:

there are 3 pir's from the door to the till no door opening so no zone acted as a guard access so if activated it would have created an instant alarm. nothing on the log from the previous night setting until the Police walked in

So either wasn't set , or something wrong with installation 

[Terry Hunter]

1 minute ago, al-yeti said:

So either wasn't set , or something wrong with installation 

Site has been live for two years and it was set hence activating when the Police went it - my thoughts a mixture of the beams set as being default medium sensitivity and the intruder being fully covered.

[PeterJames]

2 hours ago, norman said:

Erm...

Infra red radiation is anything that sends out heat - basically has a temperature above around five degrees Kelvin - gives off infrared radiation. Therefore passive infra detector is looking for heat changes, but it is also looking for motion.