Play with some 'real' kit on my kitchen table.

[a_dad]

Hi,

I would love to buy a few parts and mess about with them on my kitchen table. No particular goal in mind.  

 

I joke.  Mostly.

 

My son (autistic) and I am have been playing around with arduino and built a working alarm for his sister's dolls house.  He is thrilled, she is annoyed and I am happy I got him off his Nintendo switch for a few hours.  He has correctly noticed we do not have a real one, but do have 2 old bell boxes on the side of the house.  He wants to fit a 'real one' and made me go up a ladder to look at the boxes.   There was a central radio panel but never used it in the 11 years we've been here (owner), never had an attempted break in.  I think the central panel got knocked off the wall in some redecoration and not put back.  Wife is not really sure we need an alarm, but I have seen the local break in rates are no different to the national rates.

 

Recent house repipe means all the boards are up and I can run cables.   Even if I fit no pirs or panel or sounder, now is a good opportunity to run some cables.  Got quotes for wired + bells only but all came back for 'wireless'.  I appreciate running cables (having done it) is a ghastly job, so I felt they probably did not want the work, even though I said I could run the cables.  I appreciate that a real system is **nothing like** arduino, but if I end up with a pile of bits in a box and kept the boy of his screens for a few hours here and there, then goal achieved.  

 

When you put the floorboards opportunity next to 'no alarm' situation next to the son's interest, the solution really really does look like purchasing an alarm and running cables. 

 

What would you do differently, how can you advise:

1. I run cable and put the floor boards/carpet back (I could do with reducing the nag factor right now), leave the cables hanging out to attach later. Would you run 6 core to each pir, or 3 pirs off one 8 core?

2. Probably thinking texecom since reasonable DIY support and not too exp, maybe anything in veritas range (they all seem the same? are they the same?)

3. If you get texecom, get the wintex software - just easier, Looks like it is £5.  Also says premier elite, not veritas.  Veritas does not need wintex, veritas kits with the keypad state this is the programming tool no need for wintex?

 

Thank you for reading.

 

[james.wilson]

36 minutes ago, a_dad said:

1. I run cable and put the floor boards/carpet back (I could do with reducing the nag factor right now), leave the cables hanging out to attach later. Would you run 6 core to each pir, or 3 pirs off one 8 core?

definetly a cable per device. I would also go for 8 core the cost difference is minimal and means you dont have to worry about future equipment changes etc

 

37 minutes ago, a_dad said:

2. Probably thinking texecom since reasonable DIY support and not too exp, maybe anything in veritas range (they all seem the same? are they the same?)

Not all the same. I wouldnt touch a veritas but they are popular because of cost

38 minutes ago, a_dad said:

3. If you get texecom, get the wintex software - just easier, Looks like it is £5.  Also says premier elite, not veritas.  Veritas does not need wintex, veritas kits with the keypad state this is the programming tool no need for wintex?

Yes or look at panels that offer a web server for config. Vanderbilt (acre) do and i believe eaton do too. 

Plus vanderbilt etc have home assistant plugins when you go past messing with your arduino esp32 etc

[PeterJames]

Quote

Got quotes for wired + bells only but all came back for 'wireless'.

Kids of today!  Blooming amateurs!

Running cables while the floor is up is easy, hard wired is better than wireless for 101 reasons. Not that wireless doesnt have its place, if you had a flat or your renting, or its impossible to get a wire to where its needed wireless is fine. But in your case it sounds like whoever you got to quote is either lazy or stupid and you dont want either of those combinations installing stuff in your house

[sixwheeledbeast]

They just want to throw it in and charge extra for the service and batteries. It's sad some of the industry has been going that way... Would be a nice job to wire with the boards up already.

Wireless does have it's place but I'd always wire as much as I can. Keypads and Bells are always wired on my systems even if much of the detection is not.

Texecom isn't as open to DIY as it was, especially on the Premier stuff. Veritas is a DIY only product now I'd say tho.

I would wire a single 8 core to everything, but a single 6 core to everything would likely be fine. I just like having spare pairs for the future.

Then see if you can find a company that will use your wiring.

[a_dad]

Oh that is amazing, thanks so much.  

 

Following on then:

1. If by some quirk of chance this actually works on the table with 2 cheap sensors, I may fit it but with more&better sensors.  This is to stop the wife demanding we do not use the alarm from false positives, she really does not want to upset the neighbours.  I read some installers only fit optex for less false positives, but some say you do not need +microwave on pirs, and that dual or quad pir is better for domestic low false pos rate, so both are equally true?  

2. And also any wired sensor will fit any wired panel - so you could use optex with ...?

3. Connect with Home Assistant you say? So I could use the PIRs to get presence detection and control lighting? In this case are the 360 degree PIRs appropriate to use? Would they work for intrusion detection, or are they really best just for lighting control? I get that you do not want to point AT windows as passing cars, sunlight or wildlife (a deer I heard) might set it off, so the corner PIRs point towards doors and PAST windows.  So do 360 ones look down rather than side to the walls, and not set off by what is outside the windows?

 

Thank you again

[sixwheeledbeast]

For the cost I wouldn't buy tat sensors just to test. I would fit quads as standard for most domestic. Optex, Bosch or Texe Q20 is what I am using at the moment. They can be made compatible with all systems... unlike wireless.

Higher end alarms can mostly integrate with other systems. If you know how to program them they can often do some automation themselves without any HA it's just doing the integration right.

I have recently done a job whereby arming the system switches the buildings heating to frost only, for example.

You generally don't want 360's unless you have to, they have a place but I wouldn't use them as standard.

[a_dad]

I think that 'quad' means 2 sensors not 4, because a single pir sensor has 2 ir detectors, one pointed at the room and a second one not pointed at the room and the electronics pick up the difference between them, when there is a difference then it triggers.  I bought one - the thumbnail sized sensor electronic component - without the big lens and case - about thirty years ago, and I guess the second one is just behind the first, or on it's back half.  Having 2 as 'quad' means trigger both for positive detection.  The sales bumf seem to freely interchange 'quad' and 'two sensors'.

 

I can get the Texecom q20 here for £15.18 and here for £15.25. 

From here I can see the Bosch part number is ISC-BPQ2-W1 but seems (>£30) hard to get hold of or (>£20) sold out.

The optex looks soon to be unavailable and >£20.

 

So I am leaning to the texecom q20 as an available quad wired (no microwave) pir. 

 

Do you have to get the bell box of the brand or are bell boxes interchangeable too?

 

Thank you for all your time so far.

[sixwheeledbeast]

Most external sirens are compatible with each other but using the same brand as the panel will mean the terminals are named the same and you may get better feature compatibility.

Regarding PIR's they are the elements within the pyro. A quad has a better sensor and lens arrangement dividing the detection area into four elements that all need to trigger together.

For a great explanation I always point to this video. Bear in mind it's only explaining a basic PIR not a Quad. You could buy sensors years ago with twin dual element pyro's side by side.

So cheaper here then...

[james.wilson]

Also need to bear in mind some stability. When it comes to detectors they all have to balance catch performance vs false alarms. Napco used to be very stable for example but could miss an elephant. Then an alarmcom ir160 wouldn't miss a knat leaving the elephants back. 

I do quite like optex for that balance. 

I hate 'pet sensors' cos imo you can't ask a pir to do that reliably

 

 

[PeterJames]

14 hours ago, a_dad said:

I think that 'quad' means 2 sensors not 4, because a single pir sensor has 2 ir detectors,

There is normally only one sensor in a quad, but its broken down into elements, its the number of elements that trigger the sensor. Dual tech are two sensors, normally microwave/pir but these are built for more hostile environments where the ir may be fooled into a false positive.