IP CCTV

[amateurandy]

Perhaps when everyone has moved from 10/100 to cat 6 gigabit it will become more feasible.

43382[/snapback]

I doubt it. Microsoft will upgrade their software to use all the bandwidth and your CCTV pictures will still not get through. :!:

[Guest]

Also CAT5E/6 has a limit of 100m cabling length.. Of course you can put a repeater then (practically swich but there is limit in this as well) or use Fibre but does anyone want know the price of 1000FX switch..?

[datadiffusion]

Also CAT5E/6 has a limit of 100m cabling length.. Of course you can put a repeater then (practically swich but there is limit in this as well) or use Fibre but does anyone want know the price of 1000FX switch..?

43387[/snapback]

Yup, I think the current thinking is its *going* to be good, but dont expect to breeze into an office and start pluging into the existing cat 5. The comment about IT people vs. CCTV is valid. Luckilly I know enough about both not to screw up an existing network, but this is another worry, i.e accusations from the client via their IT department (who perhaps have in fact themselves screwed up) that you have shafted the network.

I've also heard tales of installers going out to fix faults that were in fact the IT bods unplugging the 'unlisted' cables that had suddenly appeared at the patch panel! Although thats a case in point for good record keeping and labelling, would it have been OK if an incident had occured during the downtime?

Stu.

[Guest MrMcauber]

I know this is an old thread, but as someone who has worked on CCTV and Networking for well over 10 years I thought I would add my tuppance worth...

From the networking standpoint, it is unlikely, unless its a very small install, you would run IP cameras over the "existing" network.

You would pretty much put all your IP cameras (any any other equipment such as recorders) on their own segment, with their own switches and such like. Yes, you would connect the IP Camera segment to your main network, but the only traffic going over your "PC network" would be what was requested via someones desktop - i.e. if someone accessed the web interface of a camera.

I'v got to say, in my opinion - which may not be worth much - IP cameras are the future. There are so many advantages - PoE for one means no more messy mains installations, or costly electricians to run the power for you (I'm not a certified electrician), When you look at things like Ethernet Radio Links (such as Proxim Tsunami) then you can link CCTV systems from a few miles away back to a central control centre without any cabling!

Of course, all of this is superfluous if the image quality is not good, but I dont think thats much of a problem anymore - there are plenty of cameras out there doing 30fps at resolutions of 640x480 for example. Theres some good demos out there, plenty from the Axis website.

As for bandwidth, 1 camera running at 25fps and medium compression works out about 2.6Mb/s - of course you can run at a much lower fps if required. These are estimates BTW.

Bottom line I guess, if your going to start getting into IP cameras you need to be newtork savvy! Convergence is a big thing these days, it seems anything a business can run over their network - VoIP for eg. - is a bonus because it centralises management and reduces costs, amongst other things.

Understanding of switches, firewalls (port forwarding and such like), the IP protocol, subnetting are all things that we should be very familiar with.

GW

[Guest]

Bottom line I guess, if your going to start getting into IP cameras you need to be newtork savvy! Convergence is a big thing these days, it seems anything a business can run over their network - VoIP for eg. - is a bonus because it centralises management and reduces costs, amongst other things.

Understanding of switches, firewalls (port forwarding and such like), the IP protocol, subnetting are all things that we should be very familiar with.

47701[/snapback]

Exactly what I've said on several occasions. The lines between voice, data, security and IT are becoming a bit blurred. As an engineer in one of these trades you need to know at least the basics of a couple of other technologies otherwise the customer could end up missing out.

Gone are the days of specialists, everyone needs to be multiskilled nowadays.

[Guest whizzkid_2005]

at uni they use ip cctv

some of the cameras are configured for public viewing

http://engweb.gre.ac.uk/webcams/cam_all.html

the public cams are the cheap o' versions the normal cams are lovely reception

u can see some of the comptuer room cams

baz

p.s. a shop i no, runngs cctv over ip they have 4 cameras per switch running on gigabit copper

each switch runs to the computer with a dedicated fibre connection

32 fibre runs to the server, 32x4 = 128 cameras. no (or very very little jitter at all)

[Rich]

With respect to the guys that are installing the equipment, designing is not a problem, get the manufacturers to do that for you!!

Below is the way I see the different trades and the skills involved.

Security Engineers - Alarms, CCTV, Access

Alarm engineers - Alarms, Access

CCTV Engineers - CCTV, Networking

Access Control Engineers - Access, Networking

Network Engineers - Networking

Network administrating engineers - Firmware/Software

Telecoms engineers - telecoms, networking

Other security device engineers, tagging, smoke, fire, perimeter

Now when you say integration, how deep to you venture into another trade to do your own job?

A new engineer needs to be introduced, an IP DEVICE Engineer.

The training is available, there are many people that hold most of the skills and with a little training would be classed as a competent engineer. But I believe the way to go for a company is to partner up and share the relevant skills and staff.

For existing CCTV companies without the relevant networking skills, Although they are usually knowledgeable enough to do what they need to now, may find themselves struggling when the standard PTZ dome's primary and maybe only input is an RJ45 socket and the price matches that of a standard PTZ dome.

Now is the time to get the training while ip prices are still high and overall industry knowledge is limited.

I believe when you are installing any piece of equipment that can be integrated with a third party piece of equipment you should provide wherever possible a safe purpose connection so the next person has little fuss integrating with you(within reason).

I for one have allot more respect for a company when I see their engineers have left a well ladled and nicely installed interconnect for me to integrate with their system.

Exactly what I've said on several occasions. The lines between voice, data, security and IT are becoming a bit blurred. As an engineer in one of these trades you need to know at least the basics of a couple of other technologies otherwise the customer could end up missing out.

Gone are the days of specialists, everyone needs to be multiskilled nowadays.

I agree to an extent, But really, you should know what your equipment is capable of, and then you should make that clear in the specification the client gets for your system, then its up to them to decide whether or not they wish to have the systems integrated, you cant just plug your system into someone else

[Guest MrMcauber]

Hi Rich,

theres a lot of great points in your post, none that I would neccessarily disagree with - the bottom line is things are changing and people are trying to figure out how to adjust to the changes that are, I think, inevitable.

It depends what angle you come at this all from. But the bottom line is that - as you pretty much state - if your doing CCTV, regardless of it being IP or not, you need to understand the complexities and nuances of CCTV, the cameras, the lenses, light levels, positioning.... and so on and so forth, and being an IT networking engineer would certainly be no guarantee of getting that right...

I came to CCTV from a completely different angle than most of you I suspect, I did not come from the security or access control side of things, nor do I offer those services now.

So from my angle I see it this way, and this is only my opinion thrown into the debate....

All markets, on the whole, are driven by the consumer and if we try and fight the flow we tend to sink, so IP cameras as I think we all know are going to be the norm not the exception in the future.

But why would the consumer want them? Well from my "experience" it is "convergence" and not neccessarily "integration".

You see the way I suspect things to go will be that IP CCTV systems will be installed by the same guys fitting the CCTV systems now, they just need to adjust to a new technology. I cant see a Microsoft Server 2003 server administrator or IT helpdesk technician climbing a ladder to fit a CCTV camera anytime soon! So design and install = no change, but the people designing and installing do need to change, or atleast become familiar with a new (to them) trasnmisson technology.

Convergance has a number of advantages, for example if your in offices already with plenty of CAT5 or CAT6 cables then there is no need to run new cables. But, putting all your systems onto the network such as CCTV, Telephones, Access Control or whatever, you can monitor and manage all your systems centrally. Because even though an IT guy wont want to climb a ladder to fit a camera, he won't have much problem getting to grips with a DVR interface on a PC and except for all the very major problems they wont need to call out a CCTV engineer... Where a CCTV system is "operated" perhaps in a control room, there should be no change to the operators, the fact that the cameras are IP should no be an issue for them, they just want to PTZ cameras, monitor, record, playback etc etc

Perhaps the real opportunity here though, at least this is what I am banking on, is FOR US SUPPORT COMPANIES! As an example today from my office in the North East I connected to a clients Telephone Exchange in Lancashire to do some programming, accessed a clients PC desktop in Northampton to solve an IT problem and could quite easily - though the need never arose - have accessed a clients CCTV system to do some work on it, wether it was an IP based system or a conventional CCTV system with LAN accessible DVR! These clients could have been anywhere in the world!

This can benefit my clients because:

1. They have only one point of contact for IT, CCTV and Telephone Systems.. and one support contract....

2. Cheaper, I can do this all from my desk no matter where they are in the world, therefore no call out charges...

3. Greater Uptime, No need to wait for me to arrive on site an hour after they make the call to fix the problem, a good proportion of the time it can be fixed right there and then.

Of course you cant always fix the problems over the internet, but often enough to make a difference and make it a real selling point! To illustrate this point I recently visited an engineering company to discuss some Fibre Optic cable jobs they wanted doing, now I am a doer and not a salesman, yet when the dirtector of the company found out what we could do, and all remotely he asked me there and then if we would be willing to take over managament and support of their IT and Telephone systems.

As for bandwidth hogging, well this is not neccessarily true. This is where people whom have no networking experience need to get themselves on a course and update their skills. A properly designed network, correctly segmented and perhaps with some QoS built in should have no problems coping with the computer network, cctv and VoIP telephone solutions as though they will all be accessible from one another, they would run on different segments. This was why i said in an earlier message some understanding of the difference between hubs, switches and routers is essential, and an understanding of firewalls, port forwarding and the IP protocol in general would go a long way to helping make the transition.

So in short I would say CCTV will be designed and installed tomorrow by the same people doing it today, as long as they update their skills. The main changes will come in how the systems are supported and managed and its here where the client benefits, and opportunities arise for us...

Thats my bit for the debate, hope it all sounded ok, its almost 1am, really should be in bed instead of doing this..

[Rich]

So in short I would say CCTV will be designed and installed tomorrow by the same people doing it today, as long as they update their skills. The main changes will come in how the systems are supported and managed and its here where the client benefits, and opportunities arise for us...

Thats my bit for the debate, hope it all sounded ok, its almost 1am, really should be in bed instead of doing this..

52753[/snapback]

Firstly, thanks for such a careful and lengthy reply.

Would you care to point out some specific key skills that non network orientated system designers and engineers need to take into consideration?

[Guest MrMcauber]

Thanks Rich,

Well, I think as a start an understanding of IP addressing and subnetting would be a help, as well as understanding the advanatages and disadvantages of using DHCP - the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol which allows dynamic assignment of IP addresses to network equipment. Knowing what are Public and private IP addresses, and what classes of IP addresses there are. Do a search for IP address tutorial on google and there is plenty of information out there....

Knowing the difference between Hubs, Switches, Routers and firewalls as well as an understanding what each is used for, how they work and the advantages and disadvantages of each is essential...

Understanding Ports and the concept of Port forwarding (via your firewall for example) will help....

The ability to calculate bandwidth requirments, plenty of tools out there for this already....

Knowing about Power Over Ethernet, PoE, would be good just due to the fact you would know which network equipment to source to support PoE...

I'm sure most people on this forum would understand a good proportion of this anyway. Theres plenty of free tutorials out there on the Internet discussing most if not all of these topics, and probably 1,000s of books about them on ebay going for pennies.... and of course the newsgroups are full of CBT ripoffs too if you know where to look.... Not saying you should but the point I'm making is that the information is out there....

As people investigate this stuff, questions will be answered and more questions will be raised ensuring a continious learning experience! I'm not saying what i have listed above is all you need to know, but if you have a handle on these basics then you should be able to cope with most issues.

I think Axis used to have a free download PDF book called the "Technical guide to network video" which gives some ok information and may help people identify where they need to concentrate their learning endeavours....

Just as i dont expect any IT Network designers climbing ladders to fit CCTV cameras or getting involved in lens calculations; I would not expect any CCTV installers dealing with IP cameras to need to be able to design a multi continental WAN either.... As long as they undersatand the basics and HOW a network CCTV system can integrate into a companies existing LAN/WAN environment with the use of switches and routers and proper use of IP addressing, segmenting and such like it should be enough....

Gary