Engineer Manuals

[Guest RICHL]

i mean, look at cars, haynes tell you how to strip a car down to the last bolt,

I bought a new car a few years back and not only was the maintenance manual missing but the guy in the overalls made a point of telling me that if I thrashed the nuts of it during the running in period the ecu would tell them this and they woudnt honour any warrenty claims on the engine. Them having that level of access ensured that it was ran in properly.

boil it down to an issue of safety,

It not safety, its system integrity - which you cant have if the customer has access to the enginer functions. Most customers have enough trouble doing anything other than day to day setting and unsetting. A classic example was a customer I spoke to this morning who has had electrical work done in the house and their alarm went off in the early hours - trip had gone. Sorted FOC.

and to the pillocks who carp o about giving work away, i read on your site, only 10ish percent of homes have an alarm.

No bloody wonder if (like my neighbour) the security company places eng codes in the plc for servicing etc which are restricted from the user or owner, and effectively creating a one stop oligopaly.

Its nothing to do with giving work away, and I fail to see how keeping users off things they can break is creating an oligopaly?

then i call one of you guys out, and hey presto, buisness spreads.

always remember,as an Engineer, you are invited to someones property, to perform a service for them.

Always remember that as an engineer we can say thanks but no thanks - like many others here I wouldnt attend a callout to a diy system Im kept busy enough looking after my contract customers. Diy alarms (and their owners) are more trouble than they are worth.

[morph]

ergo, if its in the box, its the customers.

if its not, then they can't have it. and its not yours to give?

Wonder what a manufacturers responce to this hot topic is? anyone asked????

Customers buy systems not boxes or product!! Alarm companies or engineers buy boxes with components, the manuals and paperwork belong to the alarm/company unless it specifically says so in the design specification.

Remember the CUSTOMER BUYS A SYSTEM AS DESCRIBED IN THE DESIGN SPECIFICATION, nothing more nothing less.

[Guest]

if i f*ck up my diy installation (i proobably will) then i call one of you guys out, and hey presto, buisness spreads.

Yer sure just give us a ring quoting your valid service contract number...........oh dear.......

[Guest chappo]

In all my years installing i have never left an engineers installation manual. If however the customer is not on a contract, at the end of the years warranty I will invite them to take out a contract. If the contract is taken out i keep the manual. If the maintenance contract is not taken out then i will send the installation manual to them with a letter stating that any changes they make are now of their doing and it is up to them to rectify it. Whilst on contract I keep the manual, when not in contract i feel it is their to do with as they wish.

[james.wilson]

In all my years installing i have never left an engineers installation manual. If however the customer is not on a contract, at the end of the years warranty I will invite them to take out a contract. If the contract is taken out i keep the manual. If the maintenance contract is not taken out then i will send the installation manual to them with a letter stating that any changes they make are now of their doing and it is up to them to rectify it. Whilst on contract I keep the manual, when not in contract i feel it is their to do with as they wish.

I agree but we only send manuals on request, and only give the free manuals (ie not galaxy) out after expiry of contract and they still want them we send them out. Doesnt happen very often though

[Guest sprog]

What an interesting debate.

I run a technical engineering consultancy firm. We provide custom electronic and computerised solutions to a range of clients. Recent projects include a self navigating autonomous baloon for meterological studies, and giving consultancy services on satellite control systems. Our work also includes technical and network support as well as IT security penetration tests and auditing.

Due to the wide variety of work we undertake, having the appropriate documentation is always required. For example, the baloon project. Our first step was to document the users requirements. This took some time, but at the end, a nice document pack was available. The next step was to design and program the hardware, create the prototype PCB's and test at the component level. Finally, field testing was completed and the project delivered.

The customer received:

Specification Document, User Manual, Technical Manual (including commented code listings and PCB designs), and a "Tech Pack". The tech pack contained all information on components used, camera details, GPS receiver specification and reference, sensor datasheets, microprocessor data etc right down to the individual resistors and reliability statistics on them.

Could we have held back on the documentation? Could they take them to a competitor for a support contract? Probably. Possibly. But to be quite frank, we're confident enough of the service and experience we provide our customers that we rely partly on the provision of information as a means of generating customer trust.

Now, on the more appropriate topic of Alarm systems. I recently moved into a property which was protected by an alarm system. I came here looking for support and was basically told "call an engineer out". My, that's helpful! I could have found that out by looking at my Yellow Pages!

As usual, google came to the rescue. It was just a case of entering the right search parameters, and BAM, a nice PDF detailing everything I ever wanted to know about my system. I follow the instructions, pop off the cover and there under it is another copy of the engineers manual!

Reprogrammed the system, set it up how I wanted, moved the door sensor and bobs my uncle!

However, even asking for help got a thread locked and the responses by some left a slightly bitter taste.

Bottom line is that a system is in my home. The system is my property and I have a right to know how to use it. I own a water dispensing fridge freezer. When the Engineer came out (under warranty) to fix the Ice maker so it filled up all the trays instead of just 1, he was kind enough to explain how he did it. There's a combination of buttons that adjusts how long the tap runs to fill the tray!

Now, if my fridge popped a gasket, or I wanted it altered with "extra cooling", I'd call up an Engineer and pay him to sort it out. But if I just want to change how long the water runs, I know the codes to do it.

Programming an alarm system isn't rocket science. It's a very simple procedure that requires a code number and a menu showing what the options are.

I want extra sensors? I'll call up an Engineer to fit them. I want to change my user code? Or move an existing sensor for redecorating? I'm well within my rights to do that without wasting my money just because someone knows the "code" that I don't...

If I balls it up, I'll call out a service engineer and get charged more than if I just got the engineer out in the first place - there's nothing wrong with that. I accept that.

But I fail to understand the big fear about supplying the manuals to the general public. Are people so worried that they'll loose work? Perhaps it'll even encourage some lazy manufacturers to make products that are a little less easy to circumvent...

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to show exactly where I'm coming from.

[Rich]

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to show exactly where I'm coming from.

You and thousands of other people.

Do you keep all your valuables in your fridge?

If you have the master codes then fine, if you set the alarm up yourself and have the manual then fine.

This is not about security companies worried about losing work, its about security companies wanting to keep the security of their customers "security system" safe and secure!

Would you be happy if it was possible to open and drive away your new top of the range car with a universal key that anyone could get their hands on?

If you have the right to own an installations companies details to access an alarm, whats the point of having an alarm, because if you can get the information, what is stoping the criminal getting that info that is about to empty your house of all your belongings?

So when you find the information you require from a website, then why not thank the supplier for the information that has just allowed anyone else to do exactly what you want to do on your alarm system.

Most of us, if not all of us in the security trade know what it is like to be broken into, or have items stolen, if not first hand then from the heartache of the individuals they are helping after the instance.

We are here to help you and advise you on keeping your property safe and secure, by giving out the information you are looking for completely defeats the purpose, so please understand why you cant get certain sensitive information here.

[Guest sprog]

I keep a lot of valuables on my PC. I have my password.

I keep a lot of money in my bank. I know my own PIN number, not an Engineer.

I keep a lot of stuff in my house. I have my housekeys.

My car has a nice radio. I have the Radio PIN number and car keys.

My safe keeps my passport in it. I have both the safe access number and the emergency key.

So why should an alarm system be any different?

If my Engineers house is broken into (heaven forbid) - should I rest at ease that the burglar didn't get away with the entire list of master codes? And to be quite frank, why should I trust an engineer more than myself to keep the codes secure?

The reason, (im my humble opinion) is twofold.

First, the cause: Many security companies are not making their products secure enough!

Second, the consequence: Engineers know this, and for this reason they are worried they're job will be under threat if the general population knows how simple most systems actually are.

The result? Paranoia about giving away these codes and manuals!

What should, and inevitably will happen at some point is these materials will become public, flaws, holes and security breaches will be found, security companies will work harder to improve their products, and the general standard will rise. The entire pattern can be observed in IT over the past 20 years.

[Guest sprog]

You and thousands of other people.

Do you keep all your valuables in your fridge?

If you have the master codes then fine, if you set the alarm up yourself and have the manual then fine.

This is not about security companies worried about losing work, its about security companies wanting to keep the security of their customers "security system" safe and secure!

Would you be happy if it was possible to open and drive away your new top of the range car with a universal key that anyone could get their hands on?

If you have the right to own an installations companies details to access an alarm, whats the point of having an alarm, because if you can get the information, what is stoping the criminal getting that info that is about to empty your house of all your belongings?

So when you find the information you require from a website, then why not thank the supplier for the information that has just allowed anyone else to do exactly what you want to do on your alarm system.

Most of us, if not all of us in the security trade know what it is like to be broken into, or have items stolen, if not first hand then from the heartache of the individuals they are helping after the instance.

We are here to help you and advise you on keeping your property safe and secure, by giving out the information you are looking for completely defeats the purpose, so please understand why you cant get certain sensitive information here.

While I respect your point of view, your entire arguement is flawed. If the intruder knows the customer PIN, they can disable the system. An intruder only wants to disable, not hang around and reprogram. If they can find out the engineer code from a customer, chances are they can find out the customer code also.

[Rich]

I keep a lot of valuables on my PC. I have my password.

I keep a lot of money in my bank. I know my own PIN number, not an Engineer.

I keep a lot of stuff in my house. I have my housekeys.

My car has a nice radio. I have the Radio PIN number and car keys.

My safe keeps my passport in it. I have both the safe access number and the emergency key.

So why should an alarm system be any different?

If my Engineers house is broken into (heaven forbid) - should I rest at ease that the burglar didn't get away with the entire list of master codes? And to be quite frank, why should I trust an engineer more than myself to keep the codes secure?

The reason, (im my humble opinion) is twofold.

First, the cause: Many security companies are not making their products secure enough!

Second, the consequence: Engineers know this, and for this reason they are worried they're job will be under threat if the general population knows how simple most systems actually are.

The result? Paranoia about giving away these codes and manuals!

What should, and inevitably will happen at some point is these materials will become public, flaws, holes and security breaches will be found, security companies will work harder to improve their products, and the general standard will rise. The entire pattern can be observed in IT over the past 20 years.

So why do you need an alarm?

Would it be to deter or stop someone gaining entry to your house and ensuring that they didnt have enough time to remove your computer, take your bank documents/cards and pin numbers, take your car keys and then your car and remove your safe.

I don't think using your pin code to your bank account is really a comparison.

How can you say security products are not secure enough, what do you have to back up this statement?

So again, why do you need an alarm?