Guest simmo Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 I agree with you Dave, if I've installed a system the customer keeps all documentation - it's his and they have paid for it all. The engineer code stays with me. If a person is genuine(how do you confirm this?) ie a sparky or another engineer then send a manual out, if you are not sure just copy and paste the relevant section of the manual. Not ideal but covers your butt to some extent. If in doubt get them to do a disclaimer. Simmo B)
Guest Peter James Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 Personaly I disagree I dont think maintained end users should have the engineer manual, and any installer that give s the customer the manual is leaving themselves wide open for a law suit. Scenario: customer decides that he wants to change the way his system is set up and wants a zone omittable. He miss-interprete,s what the manual says and completely isolates that zone. He then goes on a two week holiday in the sun when he comes home he's been burgaled, but the alarm didnt work. He will want to claim on his insurance,who will he blame and how do you prove that he didnt touch it, his insurance company will want to see his spec and if they get an indepentant auditor in it will soon be discovered that the system was not progged correctly. Either way If you give an end user a Manual your to blame if it goes wrong. I help out DIYers on here most are competant and if they aint competant (and I can tell) my advise is to call someone who is. I also find this site great for info exchange, and passing my years of experience down to young engineers etc. I guess what im trying to say is the customer has paid for a working system that makes a noise when he gets an intruder (if audible only), give him the manual and he may not have what he's paid for after he's meddled. Pete
Guest dale Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 I agree with some of what you have said Pete, but how can the user change the settings if they dont have the engineer code? Plus, I can go into my laptop and tell you the settings for all my customers panels, if I get a call out and the system doesnt agree with what my laptop says, I know they have been meddling and will charge them for a full re-initialisation. Dale
Service Engineer Posted October 13, 2003 Author Posted October 13, 2003 any installer that give s the customer the manual is leaving themselves wide open for a law suit Dont be silly Pete, if you dont give the customer the Installer manual, your pinching part of the product they have purchased. We always have left the Installer manual on-site, right next to or very near to the control panel, we even tell the customer where it is and advise them not to mess. We just show them how to use the alarm system, and go through the finer points of the user manual. In my 10 years in the industry i have never known a customer mess with the settings of his alarm without my knowledge. And Dale is correct, we never give out the Engineer code, so if the panel was crashed we`d know about it, also the log (if applicable) is a wealth of information. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
morph Posted October 14, 2003 Posted October 14, 2003 I agree with Peter on this one, if the customer is under contract then they shoudn't recieve the engineers manual. You have to consider why we all pay large amounts of money for Insurance, Failure to perform and Efficacy etc. We all pay this because we have top protect our companies from that one time possible claim" I was out and I got broken into My alarm didn't go off" We all have to install systems that best meet the level of risk of the property and most importantly we should even consider the customer as a risk, after all if they fail to set the system or isolate zones inadvertantly, they they are as dangerous as the potential burlar as well. If we provide engineering manuals to customers from day of the install then this is another element of the risk. Its fair to say that the average customer isn't that interested in all the fancy functions that a modern panel offers other than set unset, but there is always the few that are and these are the ones that will always be willing to experiment. Even although you don't leave the engineer code with the customer, most customers stay with when you first enter the property and watch you entering engineering mode. It doesn't matter how good you are at entering your code there is always the one occasion when you don't and the client has the number, even if its not the full code theres not that many combinations to work out. The apprentice enters the code in full view of the client!! Old engineer friends with the client. Unless you randoomly change your code or have a code of the day facillity then its not that hard to find out. Okay lets say thave got the manual, and spotted your code. Made some small changes to the systems operation, but it still functions okay. If we visist only once every six months and they set/unset once a day. Unless they have a high end panel the logs unlikely to show anything. How would you know? The European and inspection body rules will require us to complete a formal Risk Assessment for every property we install in. Will you record here that you left an engineers manual on site. I dont think so. Is this a risk to the systems integrity..Yes. It used to be that if a system was broken into, some insurance companies would request a log printout or in extreme circumsatnces the nvm from the panel. But the customer made changes to the system programming no reccord in the log...who is laiable for the system failure. I know who the insurance company will want to claim against. Manufacturers.. The high end panels don't come with manuals, just a simple defaults sheet. Indeed some manuafcturesr insist on being trained by them before they will give you support. In short if the system is under contract and/or monitored then they should not recieve the manual. A lot of the users who access this forum only require low end panle manuals, and if they were to require monitoring would have to be upgraded if they were to be monitored. So they would have to contact a local alarm company anyway. Most of them wouldn't want the system maintained anyway. And Petes also right in saying you can tell about peoples abillity when they ask a question. When you buy a car you don't get the workshop manual, special tools and computer to access the Engine Management system........Why is this.....Same argument I think..................but common sense prevails. If the system isn't maintained and the customer signs a disclaimer then this would probably cover you for a bells only. But as we are all in business to earn a living, building long term relationships with clients is far easier. As far as this site goes, Its great for us installers but I think there should be a detailed legal disclaimer that every member must agree to access the site, that say that the information is provided foc and as such the provider doesn't accept any liabillity for the use of any information provided or opinion expressed. Bit of a hot potatoe this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Colin.
Guest Peter James Posted October 14, 2003 Posted October 14, 2003 We are the retailer so the customer has not paid for the installer manual we did! The other thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that most e/manuals tell you how to default engineering codes. Insurance companys would only be interested in proving that the system doesnt do what you said it would do when you sold it they couldnt give a monkeys why, once they've proved the system doesnt perform as you said it would, their of the hook. Proving that the customer tampered with the system is between you and the customer and even if you can prove it you gave him the tools to do it (how responsible is that) Colins spot on with the engine management scenareo. I have every respect for you Dave and you Dale but I still think your both wrong on this one and I hope that you never find out the hard way. Pete
Service Engineer Posted October 14, 2003 Author Posted October 14, 2003 NSI Systems Silver Scheme states that information on all the equipment used by the installing company should be available to the service engineers and installing teams at all times. Surely the best way to ensure this is to leave all the information relevant to each site actually on-site. Or are your engineers carrying the installation manuals around for absolutely all the equipment they have installed..? And allthough good I dont agree with the CAR analogy, a better description may be having someone come to install a new piece of hardware on your computer, lets say a Printer, he installs it for you, then takes your software with him but leaves you the user guide. Its not quite right is it..? ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Guest Peter James Posted October 14, 2003 Posted October 14, 2003 Most of our panels are of one manufacture,( all engineers have the scantronic/ menvier cd rom and a laptop) the odd panels they all have manuals for, and in most case's our engineers dont need them anyway, they can fully program a system without a manual. If there is a panel that we are not familiar with which we don't all have manuals for it is kept inside the panel or a tamper protected box. Currently we have no panels out there that we need to keep a manual on site for. Most modern day panels are now lcd text menu driven so a manual is hardly ever looked at anyway. The printer scenario is not the same if you messed with the printer software you could mess up the computer lose all your data at most, (and its quite difficult to make a printer driver crash the computer try it) anyway the printer supplier is not selling you protection of your computer against it crashing he's selling a printer that prints your stuff. (yes I know you could prevent the printer from working but its hardly the same) We sell something that is designed to protect the customers property, its supposed to detect intruders if it fails to perform who is responsible ? The car manual is the same the retailer sells you a car without the manufactures manual, he has access to it, are you entitled to it? ask em for one see what they tell you. Nacoss and SSIAB and the other one no-one can remember are all trying to help security installers to be taken seriously, thats why they were formed. Take Corgi gas fitters, the reason they are the only ones allowed to touch gas ovens is to stop cowboys blowing people up (but im sure if they left the instalation manual lying around someone will have a go to try and save themselves a few quid) I have nothing against diyers or the strugling one man band and im sure that all on this site are perfectly honest reliable genuine guys (and gals) but I cannot commend leaving the engineer manual onsite. Pete
Service Engineer Posted October 14, 2003 Author Posted October 14, 2003 I must admit our manuals are kept inside the the panel (manual & panel permitting) or very close by inside a plastic sleeve with any of the other paperwork that we keep onsite such as wiring schedule and historic records etc. But the customer knows where it is, there is no chance of the customers quesing or knowing our Engineers codes, and where possible they are locked into the panel, so a full reset would be fruitless. I`ve deleted any installer manuals i had linked too on the forums, and over the next few days shall be removing any left on the server (there arent many), dont know quite what to do about the dual user/installer manuals..? Anyway looks like were sorted, ill trust the moderators to only supply manuals to other engineers, and hope we all show good judgement regarding who and what information we supply to Mr Joe Public. This does pose a few other problems though, so from now on the Panel Defaulting Methods forum and the Installers & Engineers Forum shall only be viewable by members known to be in the trade, or of proven competancy. Any further comments....? ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
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