Alarm Instalations ang legislation

[Guest Arch]

:!:

Guys looking for some info from the professional alarm installers amongst you.

Apart from the 16th Edition and new Part P electrical regulations relating to the supplies to an alarm instalation, are there any laws/regs relating to the instalation of non-monitored alarms.

The reason I ask is that i have recently installed a Scantronic 9651 panel coupled to 5 pir's and two vibration sensors and a CQR security Multibox plus sounder, previous post refers.

After completing the instal and programming etc all worked as advertised with the exception of the sounder which did not seem to have the volume I anticipated for a 118db unit, I could quite comfortably stand below the sounder with it sounding without any real problems. I contacted the bell box makers who suggeted spacing the sounder a few millimeters from the wall and also checking that there was a full 12v at the trigger input when it was in alarm mode and sounding.

I was sceptical but spacing the sounder 4mm from the wall made an enormous difference to the extent that it is now as I expected, however, the voltage at the trigger and strobe inputs was only 11.1v during alarm conditions with the sounder and strobe operarting. CQR suggest that this may also have an effect on the volume output of the sounder which I can undestand.

I know that this is not attributed to any voltage drop associated with a higher than expected resistance in the cabling as a carried out a con check of each wire by connecting wires in pairs for each 6 core cable and checking the loop resistance of each pair and c/o this out for all the wiring for the sensors, control panel and sounder prior to connection so I know all the cables are fine.

Next stop Scantronics to see if there is the possibility that the PSU is not man enough, unlikely I would have thought, to be able to cope with the load of a twin piezo sounder and strobe output. Their reply is that they do not offer any form of technical after sales advice to anyone who is not a registerd alarm installer, I can understand this to an extent but although I am not a registered alarm installer I have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering as well as a fistfull of Avionic and electrical aircraft liceneces. So given that I feel qualified to fault find to a basic level on these systems and I was not asking any questions which could compromise any aspects of the security of build or instalation of systems i felt their stance was unfair.

I was only afer some advice on whether there was any possibility that this particular sounder could be loading the supply to an extent that it was dropping to 11.1v under load or B) whether the way CQR want it conected could be causing a problem.

CQR recomend that the sounder is connected as follows:- The sounder is connected with the sounder strobe input connected to the panel OP1, the sounder Trigger input connected to the panel OP2, Sounder RTN to the TR on the panel and the sounder +ve and -ve hold offs to the +12v and 0v connections on the panel. CQR also require that a 1K ohm resistor is connected between the +12V terminal on the panel and the OP1 output and again a second 1K ohm resistor from the +12v terminal on the panel to the OP2 terminal. This is to provide a small positive current during non alarm conditions for Strobe and Trigger wire monitoring.

My main area of concern related to the two 1K ohm resistors but by my reckoning they should have no effect during alarm conditions and are only a factor under no alarm conditions when there is no output from the OP1 or OP2. They will then provide a small positive current which is used to provie a continuous check of the integrity of the strobe and trigger wires.

Scantronics also suggested "Although we do not support End-Users on the technical side we should point out the Bell (External siren) should not be fed from Output 2, as default this is programmed as

[ian.cant]

Three points really is there any legislation that states that a non monitored alarm system has to be installed by a profession alarm company/installer?

None at all!

Secondly do you feel that as the manufacturer they have a responsibility to provide an after sales service if a fault with their product is possible?

They do this but only to registered installers. You are not an installer despite your electrical qualifications (bear in mind you can claim your all sorts over the phone) and as Scantronic only deal with trade outlets then why shouldnt they only support trade installers. If your TV packed up would you ring Sony and expect technical help, I doubt it!

And lastly do any of you guys in your experience feel that the supply dropping to 11.1v is really a problem, although it is impossible, without noise measuring equipment, to gauge if the sound output from the sounder is correct although it is much louder that previously and would certainly be heard.

I dont see it as a problem, the voltage is almost irrelevant so long as the sounder is operating. The current draw is the relevant issue and if its a tad high then maybe you should installing an additional PSU for the sounder.

The Db output of your sounder is only as good as the direction and speed of the wind. On a good day you'll hear it ok, on a bad day you may not, its only a deterrant after all but i accept the louder the better, maybe.

One point to note about lifting the bellbox off the wall by 4mm, makes it nice and easy to get a lever under it and lift it off the wall!

[breff]

Lonnnng post,

short answer

Have you checked the current draw in alarm condition and checked that it does not exceed the psu output?

[hastings]

'Non monitored alarm' = similar to a very drunk woman.

It's a bit of a deterrent for most, but some people target them.

If you go for it anyway, they may make a lot of noise,

It doesn't matter tho cos no-one listens.

Sorry, I'm in a sarcastic mood !

[Guest Arch]

Ian thanks for the reply. I accept your point ref Scantronics but I still feel that they have a duty as a manufacturer and yes I have and would contact the manufacturer of other appliances if I needed technical support. To support my thoughts I had a problem with a Philips TV which would not show a volume display when changing the volume. A phone call to the supplier was as useful as asking my 8 year old son for advice. One phone call to Philips technical support and a few presses on the remote to programme this function and the problem is sorted.

The bell box is probably spaced about 3mm from the wall and if someone wants to prop a ladder and climb up to the apex of the roof just to get at the bell box then I dont think a box flush to the wall would deter them but I can see your logic.

Ref the current draw on the PSU, this is exactly the info I was looking for from Scantronics ie is the PSU man enough or is it possible that it is not. As a manufacturer they should be able to give this sort of technical advice as they know what components were used in the build and the spec and operating limits of these components these are issues that I nor any registered installer knows. The advantage that you guys with the experience have is you may have seen this before or not as the case may be but I doubt if any one would sit down and draw out a diagram put component values in and work out current draws to see if the psu is sufficient for the job it is just assumed that it is.

But as you suggest given that the sounder is now probably at an acceptable audio level the voltage is not really an issue. You say that Scantronic's only deal with trade outlets so this would then mean that it should not be possible to purchase a Scantronic panel unless you are registered. I am sure Scantronics are more than happy for Trade outlets to sell their merchandise to anyone as long as they can hide behind their get out clause of not talking to people who might ask awkward questions. Think I will dig a little deaper into the legal issues of manufacturers and their responsibilities although I accept you point that if their is a problem with the panel or bell box I suppose my first port of call should be with the supplier.

thanks again

Arch

[Guest Arch]

breff

i have not physically put a meter in series and checked the current draw although this may be worth while. The OP1 and OP2 of the 9651 are rated at 500mA and the siren current rquirement is 250mA(SAB) and 20mA(SCB) so assuming there are no faults the panel should support the siren without dropping the voltage.

This is where I show my ignorance, I know that the SAB is a self activating bell which will operate via its own battery backup if the wiring is cut, which this is. But what is a self contained bell and why is its current draw so much less?

[ian.cant]

Arch

The current max draw of your panel should be listed in the installers handbook/instructions, i would guess its going to be 1 Amp.

You are a classic reason why Scantronic will only support registered installers. An experienced installer would know the answer to the question that you are ringing them about, saving time in tech support.

Scantronics liturature manuals etc states they will only support registered installers, they do not class they're panels as DIY.

I doubt they will be upset about whichever wholesaler sold you the panel, its a sale after all, but they most certainly have the get out clause printed in big letters not small print.

My personal opinion is simple, Alarms aint rocket science but then again neither is Aircraft avionics. I can buy me an aircraft but i wouldnt expect a manufacturer to support my futile attempts to maintain my planes electronics.

I knows there is a big diffence but experience can count for a lot and would say Scantronic have learnt a lot and thats why they chose the road they did.

Now if you had bought a Texecomm panel which is readily available to non trade you may have a valid point.

[ian.cant]

breff

i have not physically put a meter in series and checked the current draw although this may be worth while. The OP1 and OP2 of the 9651 are rated at 500mA and the siren current rquirement is 250mA(SAB) and 20mA(SCB) so assuming there are no faults the panel should support the siren without dropping the voltage.

This is where I show my ignorance, I know that the SAB is a self activating bell which will operate via its own battery backup if the wiring is cut, which this is. But what is a self contained bell and why is its current draw so much less?

70929[/snapback]

An SCB uses its onboard battery to power the bell in alarm.

Your current draw quotation for the siren, is that in alarm or normal quiescent state?

And finally what is the normal voltage at the siren when not in alarm?

It should be around 13.6v if the panel is kicking out 13.8v

I suspect the system is overloaded, espcially in alarm.

[bellman]

You have no legal recourse to the manufacturer at all as your contract of sale is with the supplier you purchased it from.

The manufacturer is well within their rights to withhold technical advice and support.

As for your problem, I'd have to agree with people above, check the load current on the psu when in alarm.

What else is drawing power from the system?

Regards

Bellman

[Guest Arch]

Ok Ian thanks for your help but I was looking for advice not someone like you who knows nothing about aircraft or the way they are maintained or the compexity of the systems. I am not trying to tell you how to do your job just using this forum to seek advice on a sublject I do not profess to be an expert on. So do not try and tell me how simple my job is or even hint at my abilities as you are well wide of the mark on both counts. But if you want a debate on the compexity and requirements of each others jobs then I am happy to oblige but I do not think it would be either productive or useful.

Perhaps my initial assesment of this forum as a sound place where knowledgeable people shared information freely was wrong it may be a tool for some to massage their ego's.