Alarm Activation/deactivation Keyfobs

[cdosrun]

The prox tags which are becoming increasingly common are very similar to the immobiliser chip inside car keys. They don't transmit any more than a few centimeters, and only when in the presence of an external low frequency field (as provided by the keypad), so the chance of "grabbing" the code is extremely low. The biggest risk, as has been mentioned, is theft of the tag, along with keys.

Would one solution be to have two fobs, one programmed as duress and the other not. Just number them, only the authorised person would know which one to present?

Andrew

[Guest MrTrim]

I see, you learn something new everyday.

[morph]

The prox tags which are becoming increasingly common are very similar to the immobiliser chip inside car keys. They don't transmit any more than a few centimeters, and only when in the presence of an external low frequency field (as provided by the keypad), so the chance of "grabbing" the code is extremely low. The biggest risk, as has been mentioned, is theft of the tag, along with keys.

Would one solution be to have two fobs, one programmed as duress and the other not. Just number them, only the authorised person would know which one to present?

Andrew

What utter tosh!! Simple solution is not to loose the tag to start with, secondly having two tags on one bunch will lead to misreads and cause more issues than the one you are trying to solve.

and not many people are daft enough to have there address with their keys, and before you say it if a bags stolen, your going to do something about it very quickly.

Only reason tags are more common on intruder is because of the regulations, most people would prefer not to have them.

[BUSTER]

Duress is no longer allowed unless system is 'high security'

[Guest Andy_Wintles_pet_Monkey]

Duress is no longer allowed unless system is 'high security'

Realy? That doesn't sound right, wouldn't that make PA buttons against reg's too? And what about the all the panels on the market with built in Duress?

Not a big fan of keyfobs, never fit them on a domestic myself. At the end of the day, if the company I do the work for want a keypress code I'll show them how to do it using the master fob, but make it absolutely clear they do so at their own risk.

[Zak]

Realy? That doesn't sound right, wouldn't that make PA buttons against reg's too? And what about the all the panels on the market with built in Duress?

Not a big fan of keyfobs, never fit them on a domestic myself. At the end of the day, if the company I do the work for want a keypress code I'll show them how to do it using the master fob, but make it absolutely clear they do so at their own risk.

It is right. Duress is off apart from on Grade 4. Duress has nothing to do with panic buttons.It is off to reduce false alarms i.e. people entering the wrong code, not realising, and then having the police knocking at the door having set off silent PA. All part of the 10 point plan.

If you don't use keyfobs on domestics, do you fit a Chubb with microswitch, or are the residentials you talk about audible only?

[arfur mo]

I looked at it but wasn't sure about the quality. Would be interested to hear views of anyone who has fitted them

Paul

i have set one system up in a house as a 'tester' with mini-mag securing door and using g-fobs (Gardtec G840). my worry is if the panel malfunctions, or the fob breaks how do they get back into the house?

another problem is if the house is part set and a medical emergency or fire occurs how do the emergency services gain access?

i have fitted a safety EMX break glass internally, but this is not pretty and can not be operated from outside.

how should you configure for part set? should it still lock the front door?

using a Chubb Lock as an alternative to g-tags or ace, if part setting, has the occupant to turn this lock prior to or after starting the part set exit proceedure, so forcing the hall detector to be off the system?

if the client does not lock the chubb lock on the front door, although the alarm is set it is possible the insurrance company could claim 'they had not taken all available and reasonable options to protect themselves from theft' like you leaving the bedroom window ajar on a hot summers night.

how do you deal with a scenariuo wich requires a keypad on the 1st floor.

how do you deal with a final exit which is the garage up & over door as an alternative 'final set door'? if people pay a lot of money for a home and an alarm system, they do not want to have to stand in the rain while the alarm is set.

should you disable the door motor when the alarm is armed?

i love well thought out rules and regulations

regs

Arfur Mo

[arfur mo]

What utter tosh!! Simple solution is not to loose the tag to start with, secondly having two tags on one bunch will lead to misreads and cause more issues than the one you are trying to solve.

and not many people are daft enough to have there address with their keys, and before you say it if a bags stolen, your going to do something about it very quickly.

Only reason tags are more common on intruder is because of the regulations, most people would prefer not to have them.

I disagree and in defence of Proximity Tags they do have their merits, especially when used by keyholders who are either nervous, elderly, visualy or physically impaired. they are really appreciated by women (and men) who have long finger nails. they have often difficulty pressing the correct keys, managing to push the modern gell type buttons (AKA Tunstal, AD&E) under the casing 'locking' the keypad and resulting in an emergency call. so as with all equioment specified it has to be with concideration of the users ability and requirements.

a big security plus is regarding temporary staff, such as au pairs or occasional keyholders, as they can not pass on the code to a seruptitious boy freind, and do not have a code to remmember. how often do you insert a 'simple code' to allow dotty Aunt Freda to be able to remember it?

in the old days of shunt locks, people would often try a key in a lock with the door open to see if it worked. when the right key was selected the lock would throw and the alarm would was then activated usually requiring engineer reset and which was perceived as 'not their fault' in the opinion of the client - it never dawned on them to try the key with the door shut!.

with the above in mind having 2 tags of simular in appearance, would be a fools option, apart from miss-reads given the above how many people would try the wrong Tag? DON'T DO IT!.

if you are to be any good at what you do it's not just a matter of simply banging in a high quality oky koky 20000 alarm system - even neatly. you have to design it selecting components so that particular client can use it both comfotably and succesfully, and without mistakes - thats the true art of a being a security engineer.

put it this way, you go out to get some new shoe's, time depicts you decide on the 2nd pair you see. invaribly you will be unhappy with the design or colour and not wear them - it's the same with anything you sell let alone security systems, so you will not get the repeat work.

regs

Arfur Mo

35 years in this trade

B)

[Zak]

i have set one system up in a house as a 'tester' with mini-mag securing door and using g-fobs (Gardtec G840). my worry is if the panel malfunctions, or the fob breaks how do they get back into the house?

The maglock is not a security one, and can be forced with minimum force. It is only designed to make the person sticking their key in the door before they unset the system think "why isn't the door opening".

The problem you have raised is the same for all access control systems. What if the reader fails??? Well, you should think about how you are routing the cable to the maglock. It could be in a specific external location protected by the alarm system (if you get my drift).

another problem is if the house is part set and a medical emergency or fire occurs how do the emergency services gain access?

i have fitted a safety EMX break glass internally, but this is not pretty and can not be operated from outside.

how should you configure for part set? should it still lock the front door?

using a Chubb Lock as an alternative to g-tags or ace, if part setting, has the occupant to turn this lock prior to or after starting the part set exit proceedure, so forcing the hall detector to be off the system?

if the client does not lock the chubb lock on the front door, although the alarm is set it is possible the insurrance company could claim 'they had not taken all available and reasonable options to protect themselves from theft' like you leaving the bedroom window ajar on a hot summers night.

how do you deal with a scenariuo wich requires a keypad on the 1st floor.

how do you deal with a final exit which is the garage up & over door as an alternative 'final set door'? if people pay a lot of money for a home and an alarm system, they do not want to have to stand in the rain while the alarm is set.

should you disable the door motor when the alarm is armed?

i love well thought out rules and regulations

regs

Arfur Mo

[morph]

QUOTE(alarmgard @ Jan 26 2006, 10:56 PM)

What utter tosh!! Simple solution is not to loose the tag to start with, secondly having two tags on one bunch will lead to misreads and cause more issues than the one you are trying to solve.

and not many people are daft enough to have there address with their keys, and before you say it if a bags stolen, your going to do something about it very quickly.

Only reason tags are more common on intruder is because of the regulations, most people would prefer not to have them.

I disagree and in defence of Proximity Tags they do have their merits, especially when used by keyholders who are either nervous, elderly, visualy or physically impaired. they are really appreciated by women (and men) who have long finger nails. they have often difficulty pressing the correct keys, managing to push the modern gell type buttons (AKA Tunstal, AD&E) under the casing 'locking' the keypad and resulting in an emergency call. so as with all equioment specified it has to be with concideration of the users ability and requirements.

Taking comments out of context will only seek to add to cloud the issue, the reply made was to a specific post not the whole topic, the sugeestion made was by a DIY Engineer with linited exposure to the equipment concerned, indeed prox tags do have there place and also have there flaws. Indeed the needs of the users do need to be taken into account, but in the real world how many of the nominated keyholders do you actually get meet - not many, so in real terms you design and installa system based on the needs of one possibly two people(Keyholders or clients)

a big security plus is regarding temporary staff, such as au pairs or occasional keyholders, as they can not pass on the code to a seruptitious boy freind, and do not have a code to remmember. how often do you insert a 'simple code' to allow dotty Aunt Freda to be able to remember it?

Yup it does happen, but dont the premises you secure have door locks on them then and if they do, presumably your customers might notice that the door lock keys are missing?

in the old days of shunt locks, people would often try a key in a lock with the door open to see if it worked. when the right key was selected the lock would throw and the alarm would was then activated usually requiring engineer reset and which was perceived as 'not their fault' in the opinion of the client - it never dawned on them to try the key with the door shut!.

Thats just human nature - old days or not, many companies still fit shunt locks.

with the above in mind having 2 tags of simular in appearance, would be a fools option, apart from miss-reads given the above how many people would try the wrong Tag? DON'T DO IT!.

As stated the reply was from a diy installer

if you are to be any good at what you do it's not just a matter of simply banging in a high quality oky koky 20000 alarm system - even neatly. you have to design it selecting components so that particular client can use it both comfotably and succesfully, and without mistakes - thats the true art of a being a security engineer.

Agreed and that includes being up to date with the rules and regulations pertaining to the installation of a security system and to the construction and use of a property.

Also there are many "Kwik Fit Fitters" out there , not many engineers, it faulty fit a new one

put it this way, you go out to get some new shoe's, time depicts you decide on the 2nd pair you see. invaribly you will be unhappy with the design or colour and not wear them - it's the same with anything you sell let alone security systems, so you will not get the repeat work.

regs

Arfur Mo

35 years in this trade still on the tools? or driving a desk?, but no doubt still learning like the rest of our industry

B)