arfur mo Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Where do you find those clients? Every customer we have, once they decide they need an alarm, want it immediately. If someone decides they require security, why wait and be vulnerable for half a year? hi zak, i don't actually find them, as i do not advertise they have to find me. fortunately having a solid base the repeat work keeps me out of the washing up. perhaps it's my my after shave, boyish good looks or the way i 'mince' along the street - thay just like to know its me doing the work personally, they are happy to give me the keys and get on with it. and for a mainly jewish client base as a 'gentile' that is a massive compliment, so either i am a really top engineer - or a bloody good blagger. some knew me from my shield alarm days, serviced the shops see the same face for a few years (big engineer turnover before i got area) beleived i had a clue, realised i'm no racist and get asked to fit as small system for a son or daughter, it just snowballs on and on if you look after them properly and don't treat clients as fools or cretins. whatever it is they keep comming back, whole families will only use me. i even have one guy who is in Derby having met him when he lived in london. i'm in Essex, to be truethfull its a PIA journey and i tell him to use a local company - i'll even command over the phone. i have even tried to choke him off with a really silly estimate price and taken another company to introduce to him - but he just won't have it don't even bat an eyelid. and happy to pay way over what a good local guy would cost. he even paid me for 2 days, overnight happy cheff motel, meals and fuel to fit a new magnet to his back door - just the magnet - loyalty along with trust i suppose. really wierdest thing, i go all over london and home counties but i'm strongest in North London, 2 years back 2 brothers i did not previously know, living in one colindale other in stanmore, unknown to each other decided on alarm systems within days of each other for piece of mind. both asked four different contacts each (so eight contacts and not cross associated socially) all put my name up 1st, now that was a bit hair raising. both went 'fit on sight' no pre estimate or price in order to get the next 'window'. i'm certainly not unique and i'm sure you and many others have got your own fans too, but there are some strange pathes of recommendations sometimes. many stay with you as they do not want to change 'horses' and as long you do not abuse that trust, bit like most people with insurrance, to much hassle even for an excellent rate, better the devil you know syndrome . arfur_mo If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
arfur mo Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Arfur Mo my brain is reading your posts in a cockney twang. Careful with the scientific survey your beginning to sound like an inspectorate. I think the above was based on personal observation and on my observation i think its pretty accurate so therefore the percentage is now rising scientifically speaking. Jef yo jb-eye, sounding like an inspectorate - have you not paid attention to my earlier post? you shall be cast assunder from my harem! i'm starting my own inspectorate called 'gobby-in-specs' do you want to be the 1st member? you will have to de-register NSI and swear on a scorched 9500 manual never to renage, while rolling up your left nipple with a meter probe at you breast and being jabbed with a hot melt glue gun from behind - but i digress..pl,easure later. no! no! no! - its "rising percentage speaking" dough! and these are lies, dammed lies and statistics in that order! and which are then put up as 'proof' to support what is a personal opinion or perhaps bios. all you have done is to agree with someone of a like mind, and no diss intended. it would not matter a jot if all the forums members including me were in agreement with it, it would not be 'scientificaly proved, but a mass conjecture or 'hearsay', and will remain so until that survey is fully carried out by an independent survey agent. crikey i'm getting a touch of the 'gallops'. can't 'elp the 'cokney' bit, being raised in east london. i'm not a real born cockney (born within the sound of bow bells) but my dad and uncles were, so i got impregnated with the lingo from birth in an orange box. i prommise to watch that slang but now i'm off up the apple and pears oooops! so read the last paragraph again or you miss the point - i was gently illustrating unsustainable arguments we can all bung around m8. an opinion can be based on facts but not the other way round or we would not need lawyers - now theres an idea - stuff all that above i'm in you camp now OUUUUCH! me 'ead, forgot i moved into a bleeding bungalow - nothing up top but lights on below If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 and why would i need to be? my clients know i have to prioratise and are prepared to wait 4 - 6 months for me personally to install the system. Parallel universe? i do not get many service calls that are classed as urgent, and even less that are preventable. Client has no need for urn, no need to be urgent??
arfur mo Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Okay I can think of dozens of one man bands who's work I have taken over, some of its tidy enough, but most of these claim in the ads in the yellow pages "installing to bs 4737" is there a log book, hand over documents any readings, there's model documents in the standard has anybody to copy these? you may be right, before you go on this reterik pathe concider the following -: i am not having a pop at you mr happy or any other company i just want you and others to really think it through, i have yet to see a properly installed system malfunction because of a lack of paperwork - i have seen it cause a malfunction when it was placed in the panel and the trannie set it on fire, or it stopped the tamper from operating properly. personally i only fit brand new panels to new installs - never s/h ones they get used as service spares. all come with all the manuals which have sections in to be filled in with all the details as you mention above. i do do this, but i can't speak for others. for me it saves time when eventually upgrading the panel, new owner moves in or looking for faults - so common sense. i also take a download from the panel (Gardtec G595s mostly) of the program and diagnostics, record this onto cd and leave in controls (they don't catch fire so easily B) ) again for me common sense. as you are registered (and i'm 'hapily' not) i'd like to know what you or others do or the regs say you should do regarding the above measurements? i'm especially interested when you have EOL zones, 1) do you record both 'clear' 4.7k EOL measurement, 2) and also the 'in alarm' measurement? 3) in the case of several contacts on a zone, the measurement of each with the door open? most i speak to use EOL and iD. now EOL's are based on a balanced circuit as you know, so the resistances tolerated over several kohms are quit wide when compared to the older double pole zones (spec 22 ohms max BS.4737 and i hate universal tampers). apart from panel voltages this tends to render precice measurements less useful as a diagnostic aid as a difference in a few ohms or small intermittent as caused say by a faulty reed, is harder to detect due to the expected high resistance measurements from the EOL resistor. compare this to the older 'feed & return' zones which if you measured a 5 ohm difference to the original record i would be looking for the reason, usually with meter on the zone wire and low ohms, open and closing each door several times in turn by watching if the 'closed' reading changed is a good way (but not the only way) to spot a faulty reed contact with high resistances regarding paperwork on the zones, if the recorded measurements are to have a pro-active effect on a systems reliability (and lets agree is what preventive maintenace is all about) then on each and every maintenance you need to disconnect each and every zone wire from either the controls or the expander, check to earth, take measurements, compare to the chart and then investigate if there is a problem. i'd challenge anyone to spot a problem apart from a dead short or O/C, even at initial installation where an additional 5 - 20 ohms resistance caused by a faulty reed or relay connection in a pir would not be picked up based on this test, especially given the tollerence spread of the resitors. you would have to measure and record each resistor prior to doing the handover measurements to have any chance of seeing a fault, so i ask who actually would do that? and if you don't are you not just as 'bad' as the ones you mention even if you fill in the paperwork? with the best will in the world how many companies registered (or not) actually do this on every maintenance? perhaps maybe on the smaller ones, but i doubt it. if your company does then all due respects and big up's from me. i wonder about the big warehouses or shopping malls - paperwork will not be effective unless it is refered to so when will you refer to it? surely many place's that //.National Installer.// or Chubbs have are to large to strip down as above unless you send an army in, os obviously it will be after the event, so what are you preventing with your paperwork? wear and tear on the terminals would be very high and the time taken would make for the 'severn bridge' type maintenance in a shopping mall, especially if you throw in a few accidental errors. i use iD a lot, what measurements do you take for the NSI regs and do you need to put down for them? i'm not being flippant i'm simply very curious and asking for answers to seriously asked questions. regs arfur_mo If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 i'm especially interested when you have EOL zones, we short circuit in panel mesure from device, rig panel to pc then its shows history of eol vaules in alarm ect... How to commission an id system is the installer book, if recall right reading for each branch ect.. i wonder about the big warehouses or shopping malls - paperwork will not be effective unless it is refered to so when will you refer to it? surely many place's that //.National Installer.// or Chubbs have are to large to strip down as above unless you send an army in, os obviously it will be after the event, so what are you preventing with your paperwork? Simple, in this modern age each expaneders is on its own or paired in a psu, just take meter & eng rkp to each one and test as if a 8 / 16 zone system. Check against all readings stored local in a holyes bag. (spec 22 ohms max BS.4737 and i hate universal tampers). What section is that in??
bellman Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 the time taken would make for the 'severn bridge' type maintenance in a shopping mall, especially if you throw in a few accidental errors. Thas sounds horribly familiar, I look after the Meadowhall shopping centre here in Sheffield. I may as well move into the place as I'm there that often, mostly due to 3rd party damage (contractors overnight damaging cables and delivery men smashing contacts off with delivery cages during the day) :'( Brown trousers time when they report a fault at 2 in the morning saying 130 zones have dropped off the system. Regards Bellman Service Engineer and all round nice bloke ) The views above are mine and NOT those of my employer.
jb-eye Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 yo jb-eye,i prommise to watch that slang but now i'm off up the apple and pears oooops! so read the last paragraph again or you miss the point - i was gently illustrating unsustainable arguments we can all bung around m8. an opinion can be based on facts but not the other way round or we would not need lawyers - now theres an idea - stuff all that above i'm in you camp now OUUUUCH! me 'ead, forgot i moved into a bleeding bungalow - nothing up top but lights on below God is realJef Customers!
arfur mo Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 we short circuit in panel mesure from device, rig panel to pc then its shows history of eol vaules in alarm ect...How to commission an id system is the installer book, if recall right reading for each branch ect.. Simple, in this modern age each expaneders is on its own or paired in a psu, just take meter & eng rkp to each one and test as if a 8 / 16 zone system. Check against all readings stored local in a holyes bag. What section is that in?? thanks mr happy, obviously you/they use a panel i do not know, i assume its the galaxie range, as that seems to get most posts - be it for configs or software bugs or work arrounds (at least that never changes even with age ) i'm never likely to go this monster sized panel route, for me those sort of sites would be unmanageably large, and i have to be realistic to a client who need that. i do see my clients waiting several months but not several years for me to install it - you never know. ok, so you short circuit in the panel/expander for EOL checking, you have the EOL resistor in this location and not out on the zone. that would make good sense to me on larger install, as if you need to use a meter everything can be tested easier from this point. the much smaller panels i use do not have a facility for an engineer keypad to be plugged in to an expander, but its gone on my wish list. when you run your pc test it's surely from the main panel, so you must use a couple of other engineers and '2 ways' with you in control center if you are going to test/record each door - thats got to equal a massive maintenance charge to make any money? on those massive jobs is the above done every six months at each expander, or do you do a proportion of them each time? i'm just trying to get my head arround the logistics. do you remove the 'branches' from the main panel and test for earth leakage? or simply go 'volts to earth' from the 12v rail both legs? i'd assume these jobs would hate a couple of decent 'earths'. given the big leaps forward made in the in recent years, is it now 'accepted practic' for the panel to take the readings? i ask as big fuss was made by the then NACOSS of your meter being re-calabrated and certified every year. but obviously you do not rip the controls out every 12 months so a bit of a contradiction. what i see as a problem is the controls takes the readings but say its 'off', you will then test with a calebrated meter when fault finding, and measurements will be within bounds, so is it not a bit of a nightmare or at least frustrating or is there an on-site calbration routine? on iD records, i have no guidance without the 'NSI regs' not being registered, but given you can wire branch or star fashion it seems difficult to make any meaningful mesurements. lastly - do you slowly roast the installation engineer over a fire made of old battery cartons if he puts the expander/psu 40 feet in the air? i'd prefer to simply fix his manhood to a wooden decking using a T28 tacker thanks for any guidance - trying hard to stay aware of and use good practice. arfur_mo God is realJef yes i am real jef arfur_mo If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!
Guest Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 with the best will in the world how many companies registered (or not) actually do this on every maintenance? perhaps maybe on the smaller ones, but i doubt it. if your company does then all due respects and big up's from me. i always meter roller shutter contacts for earths..and most have one...biggest cause of false alarms imo...best mounted with a 3mm clearance from floor..never had any earth probs when fitted like that...
jb-eye Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 ok, so you short circuit in the panel/expander for EOL checking, you have the EOL resistor in this location and not out on the zone. that would make good sense to me on larger install, as if you need to use a meter everything can be tested easier from this point. the much smaller panels i use do not have a facility for an engineer keypad to be plugged in to an expander, but its gone on my wish list. when you run your pc test it's surely from the main panel, so you must use a couple of other engineers and '2 ways' with you in control center if you are going to test/record each door - thats got to equal a massive maintenance charge to make any money? arfur_mo Tips and tricks, read them. pay particular attention to R1 + R2 acheved by shorting spare pairs at detection device all tested from expander or panel, it easy fast and acurate.Jef Why am i posting in public forums? Customers!
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