Is This A Security Leak

[magpye]

OH YES THE GALAXY 3 ( GRADE 3 ) SPRINGS TO MIND AND WHEN YOU ARRIVE ON SITE AT 3 AM IN THE MORNING YOU HOPE AND PREY THAT THEY KNOW THE MGR'S CODE OTHERWISE ITS GOING TO BE A LONG NIGHT

Oh no it's not -

"Sorry sir, as you know, the Managers code is needed for Engineer access to your system. I'm afraid as you do not have access to this because your manager is on holiday I suggest you contact your head office for assistance. Please give our service department a call when you have the necessary code, good night."

[norman]

OTHERWISE ITS GOING TO BE A LONG NIGHT

Erm, no it's not, they have a duty of care, and if they don't adhere to it neither do I. "Ring me back when you remember the code!"

[arfur mo]

Hi Peter,

we have been over this ground before regarding manuals, i need to counter your argument -:

You say it all in the last statement, what if one of your customers got hold of an engineering manual and decided to reset his own panel when it goes off to save on callouts, only as you quite rightly put it he is not a competant person, so instead of reseting the panel he unknowingly defaults the settings. A month or so later he has a burglary and the alarm fails to operate, who will he blame, he defenately wont admit to playing with the programming himself will he?

imo this just don't 'fly', even given some panels were liturally 1 didgit different between the code to exit and default the panel (darn thats anoying to do on the last call of the day).

i see it as long as you change the engineers code on installation (i'm sure all pro installers would), reseting do default will also reset that engineers code to factory setting.

you/i/we would know the code has been changed as soon as we attend and type in our own code, it would not respond. most panels, especially the last few years have a history, which lost if reset to default - how would you client claim he has not tampered with the system if you can show the history has gone and the enginer code has been altered?

And as Andy also pointed out there is defaulting information in those books in the wrong hands they could be a problem for all installers and manufactures alike.

given the above - why? B&Q flog panels as do Henrys Audio and Maplins to the public, so not a problem in the way you seem to state it could be as far as i know.

ok, the systems fitted are likely to be poor even ineffective, but that is the right of every citizen - i.e. to be totally wrong and being in a democracy supports that right, the world is full of Sunday morning mechanics, cars kill many people every day, but you can buty a haynes manual from Halfords and tinker all you want. alarms do not present such a danger (at least not the ones i fit i think )

If it wasnt for both the above then I would have no objections to diyers having access to engineering manuals, as at the moment I have no objections to them having access to engineering manuals to the diy panels widely available on the market now.

i think i have answered those fears, but do you still feel uncomfortable if so why?

People selling these manuals on ebay are very short sighted, they make very little money from them least I doubt enough to live on were they to lose there job.

Pete

a lot of the people selling manuals do so across a wide spectrum, i got the full workshop manual on cd for my motorbike, i also got one for an old howard rotavator. the point being if you see one thats 'handy' you will look for more of them for other kit like a washing machine from the same source, thats the principle it works on. many running this 'service' are retired or disabled, so not from the trade or directly employed.

hope you see this post as respectfully exploring a strongly stated point of view, and the reasons behind it, no dissing or attack on you is intended. i personally do not understand your view on this, others do and VV.

i did get a pm from a respected member supporting your view, and suggesting many on here know the brand of panels i fit, so could enter one of my jobs and quickly default the panel. this again although vaguly possible, any such skilled engineer would be best able to kill a system, and i doubt would bother defaulting it. i replied with the above sentiments, and still not seen any argument that changed my mind, as the guys who broke in would either need to know the proceedure before hand for that panel, or read the engineers manual with all the sirens going - a bit fanciful imo.

regs

alan

[arfur mo]

hi all,

Peter and Ian among others feel having manuals generally available to the public means any jo soap can read one and be able to disable a system because they now know how an alarm system works.

my comments are with full and due respect, not aimed at starting a bun fight, please read them as so guys.

i can buy a workshop manual for a Tv set, but still can't program the ruddy channels even after reading it. seriously, how many non-trade can effectivly program an alarm system? most plug it in and use the default settings. those who have trained new engineers and show them our masonicly held secrets know even they take time to 'get it'.

i'd say that the trends in recent years now offers far better security regarding wiring in a security system. items placed inside the detection devices ensure this. so they are inherently far more difficult to bypass (if not impossible when properly installed) than older style systems of the 80's and late 90'ss. not being specific for obvious reasons.

please, i honesly need it exsplained to me how anyone (even a 38 years served man like me) armed with the correct engineers manual can overcome a system if properly installed by another with that manual - i've not seen one fitted with a prox tag or bluetooth dongle yet. i/you can wave it all you like at the external siren or a window but it won't kill the alarm system or open a secret door to let me in.

without the enginners code the manual is just about useless to a client or felon alike, even with the engineers code the system can not be disarmed if set - thats by design and i just wonder why?

give two grade 1 engineers from the same company, the same specification and kit, to fit to two identicle houses/offices and they will resolve it in two different ways - and both will be correct within standards and proceedure. so if thats the case what advantage will the engineers manual be to a felon? he would need uniformity throughout this trade right down to the cable colour codes used to be of any use, and i can't see it even then.

regs

alan

[mjw]

hi all,

Peter and Ian among others feel having manuals generally available to the public means any jo soap can read one and be able to disable a system because they now know how an alarm system works.

my comments are with full and due respect, not aimed at starting a bun fight, please read them as so guys.

i can buy a workshop manual for a Tv set, but still can't program the ruddy channels even after reading it. seriously, how many non-trade can effectivly program an alarm system? most plug it in and use the default settings. those who have trained new engineers and show them our masonicly held secrets know even they take time to 'get it'.

i'd say that the trends in recent years now offers far better security regarding wiring in a security system. items placed inside the detection devices ensure this. so they are inherently far more difficult to bypass (if not impossible when properly installed) than older style systems of the 80's and late 90'ss. not being specific for obvious reasons.

please, i honesly need it exsplained to me how anyone (even a 38 years served man like me) armed with the correct engineers manual can overcome a system if properly installed by another with that manual - i've not seen one fitted with a prox tag or bluetooth dongle yet. i/you can wave it all you like at the external siren or a window but it won't kill the alarm system or open a secret door to let me in.

without the enginners code the manual is just about useless to a client or felon alike, even with the engineers code the system can not be disarmed if set - thats by design and i just wonder why?

give two grade 1 engineers from the same company, the same specification and kit, to fit to two identicle houses/offices and they will resolve it in two different ways - and both will be correct within standards and proceedure. so if thats the case what advantage will the engineers manual be to a felon? he would need uniformity throughout this trade right down to the cable colour codes used to be of any use, and i can't see it even then.

regs

alan

I have to agree alan if a systems is designed and installed correctley it should be impossible to disable an alarm system with just an engineers manuel(take a look at some of the clients....you can spend anything upto 2 hours training them on how to use their alarm and they still //.B.W.F.// it up )

Although i DO want to point out that it is totally wrong that any technical manual is avaivable in the public domain

By the way if you do find a prox tag or bluetooth dongle that will kill an alarm system please pm me as this will come in very handy when on call

'its going off and i can stop it!!!!!!!'

'have you tried putting you code in'

'errrrrrr no i dont know what it is thats why i am ringing you!!!!!!!!!'

and all at 3am in the morning

[arfur mo]

hi mjw,

and thanks very much for you opinion,

i'm a pedantic old begger with no appologies for it (i was always old ), if we agree its not a security risk whats the problem? i would like to know why you feel they should not be avaialable in the public domain, just it's the whole point of my 'argument' if you like.

i respect your's and others opinion and if i'm truethful i don't like it either, but no rational reason. the only that is when the clients 10 year old reads it, and then askes me awkward questions

.............(take a look at some of the clients....you can spend anything upto 2 hours training them on how to use their alarm and they still //.B.W.F.// it up )

classic!

By the way if you do find a prox tag or bluetooth dongle that will kill an alarm system please pm me as this will come in very handy when on call

if i do, i'll post regarding the sale of them on Ebay - in the manuals section

regs

alan

[Guest]

Just read this more than twice to work out what your on about

i see it as long as you change the engineers code on installation (i'm sure all pro installers would), reseting do default will also reset that engineers code to factory setting.

certian products the codes can be removed without changing any of the settings

you/i/we would know the code has been changed as soon as we attend and type in our own code, it would not respond. most panels, especially the last few years have a history, which lost if reset to default - how would you client claim he has not tampered with the system if you can show the history has gone and the enginer code has been altered?

I assume you don't group engineer codes per area to prevent staff from being able to access stuff thats not in there patch,

default the product & the log stays in it, if its half decent it will log when its defaulted or codes ect...

[arfur mo]

Hi Mr Happy,

certian products the codes can be removed without changing any of the settings

what!, while the system is fully set and without causing a tamper if you have not got the engineers code prior to give you access during day mode? what panels are you using - pm me?

I assume you don't group engineer codes per area to prevent staff from being able to access stuff thats not in there patch,

being a 'billy no mates' (aka a sole trader) no. when i worked for Honeywell - Shield, they had started to use the crap6 about a year or so before i left, they decided the eng code is kept at CS and was part of contract number but jumbled. thats sonme time ago, companies all have their own ways.

default the product & the log stays in it, if its half decent it will log when its defaulted or codes ect...

don't know how many panels would retain the log or codes on a factory default, because defaulting the panel means to me 'as it left the factory', and let alone complete power down not wiping the log.

the panels i use are more than 'half decent' used and respected by many in these forums. fully compliant and insurrance approved, but they don't retain the log in non-volotile memory - what standard requires this as yet?.

we can all throw in fanciful 'A Team' based scenrio's, but when you strip them down they are just that. even to allow for a moment, the client trying to screw you. he/she would need substantial knowledge to do so (many engineers i have met would struggle). the defaulting information contained within the manual would take the kit back to zero, he/she hopefully still would not know your engineer code in order to re-insert it after reprogramming, to cover their tracks.

your engineers, as veted and trusted people (if you can't trust them - who can? would have access to all the manuals they need and as they should do. they would know the panels you use off by heart in most cases if properly trained. and that goes for the codes - they work for you so they would need them.

but we digress, we are discussing access by the public - not engineers thats another issue, so i still see no added dangers in joe public having access to engineer manuals, other than to audit the programming features and embarrase us with questions (aka 10 year old) is that the real reason folks?

come on someone - blow me out of the water, i'm wide open and theres nowhere i can hide.

regs

alan

[Guest]

don't know how many panels would retain the log or codes on a factory default, because defaulting the panel means to me 'as it left the factory', and let alone complete power down not wiping the log.

the panels i use are more than 'half decent' used and respected by many in these forums. fully compliant and insurrance approved, but they don't retain the log in non-volotile memory - what standard requires this as yet?.

I'll bet you going back to factory defaults retains the event log on just about every modern control which are suitable for remote signaling (any half decent stuff)

I would expect the log to be lost if memory depends on a button cell.

Tell you what alan, default one of your controls after popping a few enteries in the log & report back.....

[mjw]

hi mjw,

and thanks very much for you opinion,

i'm a pedantic old begger with no appologies for it (i was always old ), if we agree its not a security risk whats the problem? i would like to know why you feel they should not be avaialable in the public domain, just it's the whole point of my 'argument' if you like.

i respect your's and others opinion and if i'm truethful i don't like it either, but no rational reason. the only that is when the clients 10 year old reads it, and then askes me awkward questions :

.............(take a look at some of the clients....you can spend anything upto 2 hours training them on how to use their alarm and they still //.B.W.F.// it

classic!

By the way if you do find a prox tag or bluetooth dongle that will kill an alarm system please pm me as this will come in very handy when on call

if i do, i'll post regarding the sale of them on Ebay - in the manuals section

regs

alan

Well from one old begger to another i think it not so much a security risk as the manuals getting in to the wrong hands...i.e your 10 year old!!!....what is it they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....i friend of mine is an automotive locksmith he does have a manual(brought from a industry supplier)which tells him how to open new cars(although out of date when new model arrives)...this never appears on the internet for sale(good job wouldnt want to spend circa