Fire Alarm Zone Cabling.?

[Guest gust]

thank you for a decent reply esp-protcol,

i i did not just condem the system.. my wording on the work sheet was as

service of fire alarm system. fire alarm has not been installed correctly,

fire proof cabe has not been used, system must be re-wired for it to be made to conform to bs.

tested working but attention is required.

so i did'nt condem it completly just that the zones where not wired with fire proof cable.. and i made it know that it should be re-wired..

[esp-protocol]

Top man... can't really do much more than that.

[Guest Cerberus NI]

There was an ammenment to 1988 where the callpoints had to be wired in fireproof and not the detectors,so you either wired the callpoints in FP on one zone and the detectors in T & E on the other or,alternatively,FP200 wire the MCP's first then onto the first detector and continue in T & E!

However,unless you were a cowboy (IMHO!) then it was FP/Pyro all the way regardless.

2002 is not retrospective but does apply to any modifications that you carry out and it is here that you may run up against problems if you can't do the mods to the standards due to the state of the original installation.

However,under section 6 if you are a new service company then you have a duty to highlight any non-compliances to the customer.They do not need to be rectified but check it out for yourself -

.BS5830 (2002) Section 6

46.2 Recommendations for special inspection on appointment of a new servicing organization

The following recommendations apply:

a) When a servicing organization takes over servicing arrangements for an existing system, a special

inspection should be carried out, and existing records (see Clause 40), where available, should be studied,

to obtain sufficient information to be documented for effective future servicing of the system.

B) Major areas of non-compliance with this standard should be documented and identified to the

responsible person appointed by the user. The classification of a non-compliance as major is subjective,

but the following non-compliances should be regarded as major:

NOTE 1 It is not implied that non-compliances need to be rectified; this is a matter for the user to determine, based on the advice of the servicing organization, the enforcing authorities, the insurer and any third-party advisers engaged by the user, as appropriate.[/b]

1) an inadequate number of call points to comply with the recommendations of 20.2;

2) inadequate provision of fire detection to comply with the recommendations of this standard for the Category of system that the system was designed to meet;

3) sound pressure levels that fail to comply with the recommendations of 16.2;

4) standby power supplies that fail to comply with the recommendations of 25.4. The absence of any

standby power supply should be highlighted to the responsible person, as systems that incorporate no standby supply breach the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 [1];

5) cabling with fire resistance that fails to comply with the recommendations of 26.2c);

6) monitoring of circuits that fail to comply with the recommendations of 12.2.1;

7) standards of electrical safety such that the recommendations of Clause 29 are not satisfied;

8) exposure to, or experience of, false alarms, such as to preclude compliance with section three;

9) changes in the use, layout and construction of the protected premises that may impact on the

effectiveness of the system.

c) If no log book suitable for enabling compliance with the recommendations of 48.2 exists, a suitable log book should be provided by the servicing organization.

Hope this is helpful but you're right to document it on your report sheet - cover the butt every time!

[esp-protocol]

Check out the date of the BS you are reading.

Now, when it comes to maintenance of an alarm system, according to our BAFE man the current BS (2002) applies retrospectively and so you need to look at all systems regardless of age with regard to the current maintenance section (part 6) of 5839.

Yeah I probably didn't make it clear enough, I didn't mean the whole BS is retro.... just the maintenance section, which you so eloquently point out....!

So in effect, you need to tell the client it doesn't comply with current standards, but that it doesn't have to either cos of its age.... unless to do a mod in which case that should comply...

Hang on there's another Monty Python sketch in there somewhere....

[Guest Alarm Guard]

now thats a frist never heard that you can use any cable for the detection circuit.. this was installed about 6 years ago thats not that long ago will have to check that one out.. but as far as i'm aware all zones and bell circuit had to be wired in fp cable.. even systems that i've been to that are 20 year old used pyro?

Yep... non fire resistant was OK for detector circuits before the regs were updated. The manufacturers used to make red T&E cable for this very application.

[Guest G.J.M]

it is not realsitic to expect your customer to rewire a pre 2002 system.All you can do is list variations to the current C.O.P and leave it to your customer.

He is not placed under any time scale to bring the system up to date.Any modifications must be to the current standards,so if you add on any more detectors,it means extending into the t+e with FR cable.

As long as you list all variations and make your customer aware and sign for them,you are doing all you can.

Basically repeating all said before. If you take on any system carry out a "special service" (finetooth comb job) and test everything,don't put your name to others work that you have no knowledge of.

You might come out with a 3 page essay of non complinces but you cannot condem it,only walk away if you are not happy.

[Guest Cerberus NI]

it is not realsitic to expect your customer to rewire a pre 2002 system.All you can do is list variations to the current C.O.P and leave it to your customer.

He is not placed under any time scale to bring the system up to date.Any modifications must be to the current standards,so if you add on any more detectors,it means extending into the t+e with FR cable.

As long as you list all variations and make your customer aware and sign for them,you are doing all you can.

Basically repeating all said before. If you take on any system carry out a "special service" (finetooth comb job) and test everything,don't put your name to others work that you have no knowledge of.

You might come out with a 3 page essay of non complinces but you cannot condem it,only walk away if you are not happy.

Done that and got an 86K upgrade out of it - although they wondered why the previous company didn't highlight the problems (ME TOO!!).

[Guest G.J.M]

lucky git

That must be one in a million

most customers i have don't want to know that their system sucks and accept the huge list.

They have signed for it,so no come back for me.

A few also think that you are looking for faults to make some money out of them.

[Adi]

lucky git

That must be one in a million

most customers i have don't want to know that their system sucks and accept the huge list.

They have signed for it,so no come back for me.

A few also think that you are looking for faults to make some money out of them.

Echo that.

[centouk]

ok tell me if you think i've did the right thing..

just been to a job where the cable used on the zones was a four core screened cable not fire proof

so i just condem it. there and then.. what i could not understand was there been two othere enginneer there to service the system. one did make a note it was wired in the wrong cable but thats all they did.. in the log book they put no fauls found on the system.

now corret me if i'm wrong but if some one was killed cos of a fire in that building and the fire cable for the zones was burnt befor an activation happen.. i would be liable for the death cos the fire alarm was not installed to british spec?

what would you do?

condem it or just service it?

gust

Hello,

The problem here is mate that BS5839 is just a standard it's not LAW, however that being said you have a duty of care to advise your customer that there system does not meet the requirements of BS 5839. If you advise your customer of this and they don't do anything it's outwith your control and you have covered your bum.